Delphi Complete Works of Sir Arthur Conan Doyle (Illustrated) (1248 page)

Cross-examined
.
Q.
Then this pencil-case is not in the same state as when it left you?
A.
It is not — it looked much older then — I believe it is the same — at the time it was shown to me, I was not aware that any one was charged with the murder — they brought it to me and said “Do you know anything of this?” — I knew nothing at all about its being sold, or bought, or the least thing, not a word — of course I said, “Yes” — there is nothing I can positively swear to about it, any more than that I believe it to be the very same — the old lady was fond of selling her articles that she took away with her — I believe she was fond of money, and was in the habit of converting the things into money — these two lenses are two simple glasses — I believe them to be the two; of course I could not say there are not two others like them — I never to my knowledge saw any like them before — I know she had two like these — I am not accustomed to look at lenses.

MR. SERJEANT PARRY.
Q.
You believe the pencil and the lenses to have belonged to this old lady?
A.
I believe they did; conscientiously.

ELIZABETH GOETZ. I am the wife of Joseph Goetz, of 18, Bamsley-street, Bethnal-green — I was the niece of Mrs. Emsley — I know the prisoner — I know that he was in the habit of working at times for my aunt — I remember hearing of the murder of my aunt on the Friday — I had seen her on the Monday before that at my house; she dined with me on that day — she left me at a quarter to 2 o’clock — while she was there the prisoner came there for some keys; he came first for a box lock — my aunt gave him some keys — he came twice or three times that day — he asked for keys each time — he came and said it was a key wanted, not a box; I gave him four or five keys, and he came back with several which would not do, and he had a few more — I recognize this key, it is one that was amongst the keys that I gave to Mullins — that was on the Monday that my aunt was murdered — I next saw that key at my aunt’s house on the Sunday following — that was after the murder — I believe these to be the same tea-spoons that I have seen my aunt use — I have noticed one of them bent in the handle; this one (
pointing it out
) — I noticed that the last time that I tea’d in that house — I saw it about four weeks before the murder — I believe these spoons to have belonged to my aunt — I know a pencil-case that she had; it is before me; I recognize it — it appears to be a pencil-case that she used at my house several times — there is nothing particular about it that I had noticed before — I think I had seen it a few weeks before 13th August, at my house — my aunt was accustomed to visit me; she never came into Bamsley-street without coming — I am aware that there were no tea-spoons left in her house after the murder — I could not find a tea-spoon to use for my breakfast, not one of any description.

Cross-examined
.
Q.
When did you examine the house?
A.
I was called in on Friday, and on Saturday morning I had breakfast there, and I could not find a tea-spoon — that was the first time I looked for spoons — I did not find any — I looked for them in a table-drawer in the kitchen, and on the dresser; they were usually kept amongst the tea-things in the kitchen — I have seen three or four spoons there at a time — I have seen more than those, but not in that house; I have seen silver spoons, but not in that house — I do not know how long the old lady was in the habit of using the pencil-case; I have seen it on and off, for some time — I have seen it a long time, perhaps four years, before — she was not in the habit of using it constantly but at different times I have seen it — I have known the prisoner about six or seven months at the outside, to the best of my recollection — I have known him as being, generally speaking, employed by my aunt — he was at work for her during that period, when there was any work to do — he was the person she employed usually to carry out her plastering jobs, and so on — since the last man died Mullins generally did the work — she had a large number of houses, and consequently there was a great deal of work to be done, constant work — when she has been staying at my house, he has called there to see her, and received his orders from her, frequently — by her orders I told him to call on that very Monday for the lock to put on a door — I gave him a box-lock first — my aunt left my house that day about a quarter to 2 o’clock — Mullins had been there from 10 to 12 o’clock, during that time — I can’t say exactly at what time — he did not come back again about 2 o’clock — I am quite positive he never came to the house after my aunt left; not till Wednesday — he left, and went away to get some keys for another door — he left with my aunt — that was the third time of his leaving — he had been to and fro with keys, fitting to other doors — my aunt had other business to do, and he went away with the keys by himself; and after the third time he went away with my aunt from the door, down to the house where he lived.

ELIZABETH GEORGE. I live at 8, Cutworth-street, Bethnal-green — I knew the deceased Mrs. Emsley — I had attended her for 18 months as a charwoman — she had no other attendant than me, that I know of — I was in the habit of going to the house on Saturdays — she slept in the one-pair front room — when any one called on her, her habit was to look out from the area, or to look out of the window if it was dusk, before she answered them — that was what she did when I was there — I was last there before the murder on the Saturday, as Mrs. Emsley was supposed to be murdered on the Monday — on the Saturday before that she had received a lot of paperhangings — they were put up stairs in the two-pair front and back rooms — Mullins carried them up; no one else — I had seen him there before several times — I knew that he did work for Mrs. Emsley, aud he was in the habit of coming on a Saturday to be paid for the work he had done — I saw him there on the Saturday before the murder was supposed to be committed — he was then paid about 6s. by the deceased — she took the money from her pocket — she gave me the money to examine it, to take to the door to see if there were any sovereigns in it — it was about dusk, 7 o’clock — she said it was to look if there were any sovereigns in it — Mullins was not near enough to hear that remark of hers — there were no sovereigns — he left at 7 o’clock — I remained till past 10 o’clock, my usual time — I have seen three tea-spoons — these are exactly like them, but I cannot swear they are the same — they are exactly the same sort — there were but three kept in the kitchen — I last saw them on the Saturday — when I left at 10 o’clock I left them there.

Cross-examined
.
Q.
You attended her as charwoman weekly?
A.
Yes; she employed no other servant — she was an old lady, very penurious in her habits — she was never in the habit of carrying any sovereigns in her pocket, to my knowledge — she did not live in a very humble way — it was a very respectable house, a large house — her mode of living was humble, not extravagant — I have known her 17 years, when she was first married to Mr. Emsley — during that time I never saw her with much money in her pocket — some times I saw a couple of bags on the mantel-piece, about as large as my fist, but I never saw them untied — I saw them when I went, but they were not there again — I did not see any bags on the mantel-piece on this Saturday evening — I partly cleaned that room on the Saturday — an old gentleman came on the Saturday of the name of Green — he lived up at the Park — there was also a short man came to look at the paper — I believe that to be Mr. Wright, in the Mile-end-road — I did not know him at the time — a man also came about 12 o’clock with a bundle of paperhangings — she had a great many paperhangings — she was not in the habit, till latterly, of selling them, not till a week or two before her death — a week or two before she died she had several persons call upon her about paperhangings — I never saw but this Mr. Wright.

MR. SERJEANT PARRY.
Q.
Did Wright go away while you were there?
A.
Yes — Mr. Green is 50 or 60 years old — I do not know whether the other person bought some — Mrs. Emsley took him up stairs — I do not know whether he bought any — he passed out — he went away while I was there — this was on the Saturday — the old lady used to carry a small basket in collecting her rents, and put the money into a leather bag.

COURT.
Q.
Had she any banker?
A.
Yes; she went to the bank — I heard say she did bank; she banked with the Bank of England.

MR. BEST.
Q.
Did you ever go to the Bank of England for her?
A.
No; when the gentleman called about the paperhangings the old lady, as he left, seemed to say that he was to call another time — I did not distinctly hear — I only passed on the stairs.

WALTER THOMAS EMM. I am a shoemaker by trade — I reside at a little cottage in Emsley’s brick-field, Globe-town, Bethnal-green — I know the prisoner — I have know him from, I think, about the beginning of last February — he has visited at my house — he has had meals there — he has had tea three or four times at the house in the brick-field, and I think he has had meat and bread too there, after dinner when he has called in — I think it was about four weeks before 13th August, the day of the murder, that he had been at my cottage, but I saw him in Barnsley-street two days in that week — I had to fetch him on the Thursday before the 13th August for the old lady, to move a slab-stone in one of the houses in Barnsley-street, in the back yard — I saw him on the Friday before the murder, in the afternoon — I was frequently in the habit of seeing him — he worked for me — he worked for Mrs. Emsley, and I had to see him — I was employed by Mrs. Emsley to collect her rents, and I took jobs from her — I remember Thornton, and Thomas, and Tanner coming to me at the brick-field — that was on Sunday, 9th September, I think — I was then taken in custody — I did not know what the charge was — I was charged with having a parcel there belonging to Mrs. Emsley.

Q.
We have heard that a parcel was found by Serjeaut Thomas, behind a slab in an out-house of your cottage; did you put it there?
A.
No; I had not anything whatever to do with that parcel — I had never seen that parcel before it was produced in my presence by Thomas — I was aware that a reward had been offered — I saw the old lady on the afternoon of Monday, 13th August, about 2 o’clock, at the end of Barnsley-street — that was the last time I saw her alive — after I left Mrs. Emsley on Monday, 13th August, I went into one of the houses to see a plumber, and from there I went home — I got home about half-past 3 — I then stopped at home till 6 o’clock, or a little after 6; then I went with Mr. Rowland to Bethnal-green workhouse — I stopped there for some time, till Rowland, and my wife, and a Mrs. Buckle came out — I then went on to the field again with them — I wanted Rowland to drive me to Stratford — I was on the field some length of time — I could not catch the pony to get it harnessed; that took me some time — then I went to Mr. Rumble, the owner of the pony, to see if he would come and catch it, and when I came back again Rowland and my wife, and some one else, had caught the pony — I started about 9 o’clock to go to Bromley and Stratford — it might be two or three minutes past 9, I am not exactly confident what time exactly it was — I think I got home to Globe-town about half-past 11 o’clock — my wife went with me to Stratford, and a woman of the name of Buckle; and Rumble, the owner of the pony, drove me there — we were the four that went — I have a toll-ticket that I had on that day; this is it (
produced
) — the date is the 13th of the 8th month.

Q.
On the solemn oath that you have taken to tell the truth, had you anything to do with the murder of this old lady?
A.
No I had not — I remember the day I was taken into custody, when the parcel was found — on the previous day, Saturday, I think it was about half-past 9 when I got up — I was not well that day, or I should have been up before — I went out of the cottage that day, I think, about a quarter or twenty minutes past 10 — I had not left the cottage before that at all — ray daughter was in the cottage that morning — she works for me — she binds, and works on the seat — my wife was in the cottage that morning — I know a shed about 40 or
50 yards
from my cottage — I did not go there that morning — I did not put any parcel there — I did not go into the shed that morning by the side of my cottage — I only went to the shed on the right side — that is — a water- closet — I went there — I returned in two or three minutes — I then remained in the house working till my dinner was ready — I was not outside any more — I collected rents for the old lady, at Stratford — that was my business that night — I went there by Mrs. Emsley’s orders at 2 o’clock that day when I saw her, because I did not send my boy on Saturday — it was one house I went to, to receive 1
l.
— I did not receive the 1
l.
— I went for that purpose — I did not call at Mrs. Emsley’s house after that till the following Wednesday, 15th August — I called for her to go with me to Stratford — I found no admittance to the house — afterwards, in consequence of what I had heard, I acquainted Mr. Rose, at his private house, at 8 o’clock on the following Friday morning, that I could not obtain admission to the house.

Cross-examined
.
Q.
How often did you go on the Wednesday to this house?
A.
On Wednesday, the 15th, I went in the afternoon, and then, as I came home from Stratford, at half-past
9 in
the evening — I knocked in the afternoon; there was no answer — I knocked again at night at half-past 9 — I did not stop there, because it was raining — I sent my wife on the Thursday morning — I went on Thursday evening myself — I knocked again; there was no answer — Mr. Whitaker, a relative of Mrs. Emsley’s, lives close by there, across in the Bow-road — I can’t say that I thought there was something the matter with the old lady; when I knocked twice on the Wednesday — on the Thursday night I should say I did — I did not go and tell any one then that I could not get in — I spoke to the next-door neighbour, at No. 8, who came home while I was standing there — I said, “Have you seen Mrs. Emsley to-day?” — he said, “No, I have been out all day” — he looked at my wife and said, “Why, you were here this morning” — my wife had told me she had knocked in the morning — I said, “I have been knocking now for some time; it is very strange; I was knocking here at half-past 9 last night” — he said, “Oh! then she came home late” — with that I turned to my wife and said, “Well, we had better let this be; we will call one of the youngsters up in the morning, and send them to the house, and see whether we find the house in the same position as it is now; if we find the house in the same position then I will let all that I know who know Mrs. Emsley know of it” — for that reason I called the girl up at 6 o’clock, and sent her to the house — she came home again to me, and I got my breakfast, and then I called on Mr. Rose, and told him all that had gone on — I then recollected that the boy could not get admittance on the Tuesday, and I told Mr. Rose of it — from there I sent one of the children to Mr. Biggs, and I went to Brook-street, Ratcliff, to a Mr. Churchley, thinking he might have seen Mrs. Emsley — I did not know that the old lady was subject to fits, and that she had a swimming in the head about three or four weeks previous to her being murdered — I don’t think I have said that I thought she was in a fit when I called on the Wednesday — I am sure I did not say so — I could not have said such a thing as that — if I had thought that, I could have got a ladder and got into the house — I did not allege, as a reason for not telling her relatives, that I thought she was in a fit — I am sure of that — I was in the habit of going sometimes three times a week to Stratford to collect those rents, Monday, Wednesday, and Saturday — I used to take the old lady the rents as soon as I got back — I never went on a Wednesday but what I did receive some rents — on Mondays and Saturdays I did not have to call at her house — I dare say that this was the only occasion within the last month or so that I went down in a vehicle to collect these rents, but I have often been to Stratford in a vehicle — I don’t know that I received tickets from the turnpike-keeper always — sometimes the driver of the cart did — it has not always been the same that drove me — when I have received them I have not taken any notice whether I have kept them, for I did not think they would be of any use to me — I found this one in my pocket — I did not think it would be any use to me — I found it in my waistcoat pocket — you are obliged to have them, because you go through two or three bars, and are obliged to sing out the number — I can’t say whether I wore that waistcoat from that time up to the time I found the ticket; sometimes I put on one and sometimes another — I have got, perhaps, half-a-dozen waistcoats or more — I put on one, a thick waistcoat suitable for a chilly night, and a thin oue if it is warm — I asked the carman if he had this ticket and I felt in my pockets to see if I had got it, and I found it in one of my pockets — I can’t say when — it was after my apprehension that I found it; after I was locked up — this was not the first time I have ever said anything about this ticket — I took it, I think, the first week after I was liberated — I took it to Mr. Wontner — Mr. Wontner told me to take care of it — I did not produce it before the magistrate; it was never asked for — I had it there ready if asked for — Mr. Wontner had it, and he gave it me back again, and told me to take care of it — Rowland was the name of one of the persons with me that evening — he was with me up to about 9 o’clock, but Rumble, Buckle, and my wife were the parties that went with me to Stratford — I cannot tell you when I first saw Rowland after that, for I often saw him — I saw him shortly after I was released, but he told the officers, and told Mr. Young, the same day I was locked up, before I was released, that Rumble and Buckle were with me — he knew it the day before I was discharged — it was not told in my presence — I was locked up when Rowland had got Rumble and Buckle to prove that I was there — they had not been examined then — I was not well when I saw Mullins on the Friday previous to the murder — that was a month before I was taken — I had been on and off in an ill state, the whole of that time — I had not been lying in bed till half-past 9 each morning from the time I saw Mullins first till I was taken, but in between I had — I have not been up as early as 5 o’clock — I am confident of that — I got up as early as 8 o’clock within a day or two of my being taken in custody, not earlier than 8 I am quite sure; never on any occasion that I now think of, I don’t think I have been up before 8, I know that I have not; it is above thinking, I know I was not up before 8 — there was nothing for me to look after on the field; for that reason I should not have to get up — I carry on the trade of a shoemaker.