Munson: The Life and Death of a Yankee Captain (33 page)

JA:
One of the things that I learned when the coroner’s report came out, that probably has helped me over the years, is that, um, at the time David and I left the aircraft, that there might not have been a whole lot we could do to
save Thurman at that point. That he had spinal damage. That his neck had been broken. And that when we left that aircraft, we had probably done everything that we could have. And when I met with Diana, after the accident, it was so hard to look her in the eye, and say, “You know, Diana, we did what we could, to get Thurman out of there. And we just couldn’t do it.” And that was tough then. That was really tough.
[Cries, coughs.]
That was probably the hardest part of it all. Sorry about that.

TR:
The report. You mentioned how often your mind goes back to the report, in a sense, as a comfort.

JA:
Yeah. The National Transportation Safety Board report, which details the accident almost in the third person, which then gives me the ability to read it in the third person, offers me a lot of comfort sometimes, in recognition of what we did, was the right thing. And as difficult as it is to accept the loss of Thurman at a very early age, two of the three people in that accident that day survived. And that’s a blessing, because three people could have perished. Certainly one perishing was bad enough. But it could have been a lot worse. And when you read that NTSB report, what you realize is that Thurman was a well-trained, competent pilot, who made a mistake, a couple of pilot errors that day. And pilots are human. And when pilots make errors, aviation is not very forgiving. So we have to be very careful, in that regard.

TR:
You mentioned, just before we broke, Jerry, that Thurman made a mistake or two. What mistakes did he make?

JA:
Well, in the last, the last time around, as we now all realize from all the reports, we probably should have put the flaps down. And as we got into our sinking and
acceleration, the gear had not yet been put down. So probably the two mistakes that were made on the last time around, is that we didn’t have our approach flaps in position, and that the gear was put down late. The gear was put down. It was just put down a little bit later than normal.

TR:
What’s the biggest misconception, all these years later, about what happened?

JA:
The misconception, in my opinion, is, is that you hear a lot of people talking about Thurman as a pilot. I have heard other baseball players—I have had contact with pro ballplayers over the years. And I hear them giving their opinion of Thurman as a pilot. And I think to myself, “Well, they are not a pilot. What qualifies them to judge Thurman’s skills? And have judged his skills twenty-five years ago?” So the misconception, I think, that a lot of people have is that Thurman was not a good pilot, that he was “rushed through his training much faster than he should have been.” There is no question that his training was accelerated. No question about it. He did it in a very short period of time, what takes many pilots years to do. In a year and a half, he went from flying a single-engine aircraft to a jet. However, he did it within the regulations.

TR:
And when we were talking earlier, Jerry, you mentioned something with a lot of flair. That’s Thurman’s approach to life. And you, you made a bit of a baseball analogy. He lived. “He did most things as if it were a full count and two out,” etc. If you wouldn’t mind, reprise that, and elaborate on what you meant, and why you believe in that.

JA:
Thurman was a very intense, focused individual. And he lived life with the throttle to the fire wall. With the
pedal to the metal. And he was a “get it done, come through”–type guy. You know, 3-2 count, bases loaded, bottom of the ninth, you wanted him at the plate. Handball is a game that’s played, first one to 21 wins. I can remember matches [tied at] 20-20 with him. And if we would have 20 points, I knew we’d get 21. He could always punch the ball over the goal line. That’s how he was. The intensity that he had, the focus that he had. He just couldn’t be stopped. When he learned to fly, he was also that intense. He would study the manuals of the airplanes that he was learning to fly. He would know the page. Not just the information, he would know the page number where the information resided.

TR:
How has that intensity, and that legacy, Jerry, shaped who you are now?

JA:
Well, twenty-five years is a long time. And of course, Thurman didn’t live his complete life. So, you know, we only have him, and his memory, for a short period of time. But sometimes when I feel myself getting a little bit lax, or when I don’t think I might be able to come through in a situation, I think about Thurman. Because Thurman would just say, “Just get it done. Focus. Concentrate.” Punch the ball over the goal line. Get the base hit. Score the twenty-first point. Land this airplane.

TR:
Why do we remember him, twenty-five years later?

JA:
It absolutely amazes me that Thurman’s memory is as alive and well as it is. Tom, I travel the country, and people say, “Well, you are from Canton, Ohio.” I say, “Yeah, I am from Canton, Ohio.” They say, “Football Hall of Fame. And Thurman Munson.” And then we start talking about Thurman. “Did you know Thurman?” “Yes, I did.” “And you did? Thurman? And you worked with Thurman,
on some of his real estate? Well, what did you think?” They always want to know. They know him. Then they will say, “Oh, I remember that August as if it was yesterday.” Most of the time, very seldom do I ever tell people that I was a survivor of that crash. But they remember. And that was the only connection, is from Canton, Ohio. Amazing to me. I think they remember. I think they remember Thurman, because he was, of what he represented. He was an ordinary guy. Sort of a country bumpkin, in a way. And he went to New York City. He made the big time. He was the captain of the New York Yankees. And yet he lived in northeastern Ohio. Canton, Ohio, a small little community, a quiet community, a Midwest community, a very conservative community. And it was almost as if he had these two lives. He was dedicated to his family, which I think made him stand out. And I think that’s much of the reason that he is remembered.

TR:
You said you still fly.

JA:
I do still fly.

TR:
And what is it like, to fly back into that Canton airport?

JA:
What is it like, to land on runway one-nine? The first time that I flew, after the accident, I was perspiring so profusely, that I thought I had wet myself. I was that nervous. The adrenaline was so high. And my tongue was so dry. When the tower cleared me to land on one-nine. And Tom, I can remember, not too many years after the accident, hoping, praying, that I would land on runway two-three, or five, any runway but one-nine, please. Because every time I fly on the final approach to one-nine, I would have to look down at that terrible place where we had crashed. Of course, now it’s all grown over, and all the
trees are gone, and the stump is removed. But all those memories get resurfaced, as I flew over the approach for one-nine.

TR:
I had a few different points, when we spoke, Jerry. You have said twenty-five years is a long time. But at several other points, during our talk, you have worn a lot of emotion on your face, twenty-five years later. Why?

JA:
Well, twenty-five years is a long time. But when I think about the accident now, it’s almost as if I see it as a movie. Because I have learned so much. I have learned as a pilot. I have learned as a practitioner. I have learned as a father. I have realized all those things that Thurman missed. I mean, remember, Tom, we were in our early thirties. I mean, we were kids. And now, I have lived most of my life, and I have had my career. The reasons these conversations spark the emotion that it does, is that it’s very deep. And it was a time that was very exciting. I had given up another business to be able to go and get involved with Thurman in a partnership. I didn’t want to give up that other business. He said, “Give up that other business, or we are not going to do our partnership, with putting ballplayers together, to invest in real estate.” That was a turning point for me, in my career. And it’s the turning point that never took place. And we turned the corner, but never traveled the road.

WILLIE WEINBAUM:
A couple of things. Just real quickly. You mentioned that people say to you, “The Football Hall of Fame, and Thurman Munson,” when you mention Canton. One of the things that, in all honesty, most people do not remember is that Thurman Munson
was not alone. If you can, what are your thoughts on what most people do remember about that day, and the fact that you and David Hall are sort of footnotes to that history?

JA:
Well, Dave Hall and I are footnotes to the history. And we are not public figures. Thurman was a public figure. He was a professional baseball player. His memories live on on TV. And you can watch him. You can, you could watch the 1978 World Series tape. And you see him in action. And David and I were just two friends with him that day, along for a ride. And we should be footnotes. We are survivors, but we were not the public figure. A lot of things have changed. And a lot of things have changed in baseball, and aviation, for the better, after that crash. I think many baseball contracts now exclude the ballplayers from being able to fly. I think that the FAA has tightened up some of the requirements for training. I think some aircraft companies have put less of a full-court press on public figures to buy aircraft. And Payne Stewart was killed in an airplane crash.

TR:
Yeah.

JA:
How many people know who else was in the airplane? Payne Stewart was the public figure.