The Nuremberg Interviews (18 page)

“I must go into the problems of the leadership principle, living space, and so forth before the tribunal. I was in favor of the leadership principle, because the leader was to be the voice of the people. Living space
meant not the conquering of foreign territories, but colonies, trade pacts, other mechanics, but not war. I was interested in German economy on a world scale. To me, the concept of living space was that Germany could participate in world economy. We were hampered by the reparations and the trade barriers of other nations.

“I must reply to the prosecution’s indictment that I helped manufacture the party program. That is nonsense. In 1921, when National Socialism was developed by Hitler, I had never even heard of it. It was in 1932 that I spoke with Strasser and told him some of my economic ideas, which he used in speeches. I favored lowering of interest rates and stabilization of currency, new credits for the Reichsbank. I also stressed the need for export trade. Among other things, I also stressed the importance of insuring investments, agriculture, industry. Oh, many things which would certainly be agreeable to you as an American.

“At first my ideas were respected. But later I was regarded as too much a liberal or democrat. I was against too much socialization of industry because that stifles individual effort and initiative. I succeeded in some of my aims. I succeeded in placing individual enterprise ahead of state enterprise.

“I want to tell the tribunal that I was against rearmament. That my ideas for solving unemployment were not rearmament. I wanted to foster building of new houses, new industries such as automobiles, and building of roads. I also wanted to put agriculture on a more advanced technical plane.

“I am not a politician. I never held a party job, even. Only for a couple of months I headed the Office for Private Business, in 1932–33. I was never a member of the corps of leaders. I never attended party functions such as the Munich festivities of November. I disliked rallies and big functions. I was never part of the inner circle of Hitler, despite what certain propaganda books claim. And the mention of me in Messersmith’s court affidavit is false, too.
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I was a member of the Reichstag for a brief time until it was dissolved. But to be painted as the economic adviser, the big man of the Nazi economics! Ridiculous! Schacht may be a financial genius, I don’t know. Gottfried Feder was the leading economic philosopher of the party. And there was Wilhelm Keppler later on. These men were more important than me.

“I must tell them, I suppose — my lawyer says so — how I came to be chief of the press. Well, in January 1933 Hitler asked me to take the position
because of my newspaper experience. Also I had friendly relations with von Hindenburg. So I became secretary in the Propaganda Ministry under Goebbels, but I didn’t like it. Later Otto Dietrich became press chief.
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But I had no power. All I did was deliver orders from Hitler to the press.

“I was present at cabinet meetings but I had no voice, was not a member of the cabinet.

“Am I boring you? I know that this sounds so dull. To me, also. But that is what I am charged with in this trial.” Funk, who had been sitting like a Humpty Dumpty on the edge of the cot, arose and disposed of his cigarette in the toilet in the cell. He sat down again and awaited my reply. I was busy taking notes, and finally he asked whether he should continue. I said I had plenty of time and he should tell me whatever he pleased.

“They will certainly want to hear me talk about the Jews. Some of my closest friends were Jews. In the financial world when I was editor of the paper from 1922 to 1931, I had many Jewish friends, socially and in business. I never adhered to racial theory. I thought, as did so many others, at first that the anti-Semitism of the Nazis was a political point. It is true, though, and some of my Jewish friends agreed, that there was too high a percentage of Jews in the law, in the theater, and in the economic and cultural life of our Reich. Jewish influence in art and music were not true to German culture. How could it be? It was naturally Jewish. But I was not a radical. I did not foresee the mass murders or the extermination programs. Furthermore, I personally assisted many Jews who would have been excluded from economic or cultural life because of the Reich Chamber of Culture Law, which eliminated Jews from those fields. I had nothing to do with that law, because it was made by the cabinet and I was not a member of it. I helped Jewish editors, like the editor of the
Frankfurter Zeitung
, and many others. Richard Strauss wrote an opera based on a story by a Jew, Stefan Zweig, and he was criticized for it. Besides, he had some non-Aryan grandchildren, and I spoke up for him.

“I remained in the Propaganda Ministry until 1937. In November 1937 I took over Schacht’s position as economics minister. It was a complete surprise to me. It was at the opera in Berlin, and Hitler said to me that Schacht and Goering could not get along, and I must take the position over from Schacht. He told me to see Goering. Really I did not become minister of economics until February 1938, because Goering himself was acting as minister of economics from the time Schacht left
until he decided I should become a cabinet minister, in February. In any event, I was a minister but really not a minister because I was under Goering and the Four Year Plan.

“The prosecution accuses me of responsibility for rearmament. That is false. The armament program was headed at first by General Georg Thomas, then in 1940 by Fritz Todt, and from 1942 on by Albert Speer.

“In January 1939 I was called to Hitler. He was excited. He said Schacht had refused further Reichsbank credits and it was nonsense and he would not stand for it. He said he would assume responsibility as to Reichsbank credits, he alone. He told me that I should take charge of the Reichsbank. I said I would be glad to do so, provided the stabilization of the mark continued. There was no danger of inflation as long as the economy was regulated. I kept the mark stable until the very end. In all countries during a war, larger credits and debts are incurred. The amount of debt of the U.S.A. or England by comparison is larger than in Germany. But Schacht could control the credits from the Reichsbank; I could not, and it was Hitler himself who ran the Reichsbank.

“Concerning the war, I had nothing to do with it. Naturally when it came I did all I could to maintain the economy and transform the civilian economy into a war economy. But I personally did not expect the war. Before the war I did everything in my power to bring about better relations economically between foreign countries and Germany. Doesn’t that prove I didn’t want or expect a war? My God! In June 1939 I had a conference with bankers from your country, Sweden, England, France, and others. It was probably in August 1939, a few days before the war started, that I thought in terms of a war.

“I never worked for war, but rather to bring about international understanding and goodwill. I hoped for a diplomatic victory and that we would again have the old German city of Danzig, and the German provinces in the East, and that just as at Munich, Hitler would have a victory without a war. Furthermore, Hitler did not really need me; he was the real dictator of economics, and I was merely a title. To show how little confidence Hitler had in me, how little he regarded me, he never called me in on any conferences, especially in regard to war against Russia. It was through Hans Heinrich Lammers and Alfred Rosenberg that I learned that a war with Russia was inevitable. I was against it because the economic exchange was so satisfactory. We sent them manufactured products and in return received raw materials.”

I said that I really was much more interested in Walther Funk the man than in his economic or political theories. Immediately he dropped his dress rehearsal, and smiled apologetically, saying:“Ach! I know. If I were to play the
Pathétique
or the
Moonlight Sonata
for the high judges, they would let me off. But my defense unfortunately will not be musical. They will accuse me, and with a certain degree of correctness, of being part of the criminal government. Already I’ve heard about a charge against me that gold from SS sources, concentration camp victims, was deposited in the Reichsbank. I know nothing about it. Of course I knew the Reichsbank had a deposit from the SS, but where the gold came from I never knew.

“But ignorance of the law is no excuse. A person is guilty even if he breaks the law unknowingly. I shall be perhaps the first of the defendants to get up on that stand and admit that I am at least partly guilty.”

“I have been working on my defense, such as it is,” he said, pointing to the table on which were a number of notes and transcripts and the like. I told him to continue or not as he saw fit. Oh no, he was always delighted to have me, and it was indeed a respite from unpleasant labor. He does not enjoy working on his defense. “I’d rather play the piano — or the violin, or cello. Did you know I studied harmonics, was a concert pianist for a while?”

I asked him how his love of music was reconciled to the activities as economics minister and president of the Reichsbank. He said that he had done nothing personally of which he was ashamed. For example, “I know the prosecution will ask me about Otto Ohlendorf, who was manager of a committee on export trade when I met him. When the chief of export trade came in December 1943, he brought Ohlendorf with him. He was a good man, it seemed to me. People could not talk of atrocities, because they were under oath to keep secret. And if people were decent they would not tell me anyway because they would not want to involve me.”

I asked him whether he therefore appreciated not having heard about the atrocities, because he had just said if people were decent, they would not tell him, because it would involve him. He dodged the issue by answering: “Well, such people might not know what I would do about it and might think I would go to the Führer and report.

“There may have been many individuals who knew about the cruelties and atrocities, but they knew better than to come to the ministers with such tales.” I asked him again just what he meant and he said, “Can’t you understand that a minister would be the least likely man to hear about atrocities or bad things, because people would be afraid of telling them for fear of being reported? That’s what I meant when I said a moment ago that no decent person would report such things to me and so involve me.

“Now, the prosecution will probably bring up Ohlendorf, who worked for me and who admitted before his tribunal he killed ninety thousand Jews. I was quite upset when I heard Ohlendorf. I didn’t know things like that existed. And secondly I didn’t know Ohlendorf was involved.

“I assumed Ohlendorf had been at the front, but like Hitler, who had also been a soldier.”

I asked Funk what sort of impression he had of Ohlendorf — what kind of personality and character did he seem to have in the associations Funk had with him? “Well, Ohlendorf was only in the ministry for a year. Now since I know of his being in charge of that
Einsatzgruppe
which killed ninety thousand Jews, I can explain something which up to now I just could not understand. I always had the feeling that Ohlendorf was spiritually depressed. I mentioned several times to my wife, when we had Ohlendorf to dinner, that he seemed like a man who just could not be happy. Ohlendorf must have been very depressed on account of that experience. He could not laugh heartily — and a man who cannot is either depressed, or sick, or bad. I thought he had something in his soul which bothered him.”

This type of amateur psychologizing is one of his favorite pastimes. I asked him whether Ohlendorf was known to him as being very anti-Semitic. “The question never came up. I cannot recall that he ever spoke against the Jews. We never talked much politics. My friends are always famous authors, or scientists, artists, et cetera.

“But I thought Ohlendorf to be basically a very decent man. He had a happy family life, his wife and children — I knew them. She is a simple woman, comes from farmer stock, a very quiet type. I met her once at a concert. I can spot a musical type. I can tell by looking at a woman whether she is a contralto or a soprano.

“Schacht’s witness Hans Bernd Gisevius will prove the worst witness for the defense and the best possible witness for the prosecution.
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Gisevius
was in the police under Goering, and Wilhelm Canaris, during the time when he was doing espionage work. As usual with such people, they work both sides of the fence at the same time. Gisevius was a member of the
Attentat
of July 20 against Hitler. Then he fled. Now he tries to sell his books. But don’t forget Gisevius was and is a Nazi. And I predict he will try to say, like certain others, that he was against all Nazi politics.”

For the first time I saw Funk become moderately incensed. He spoke coolly but with great contempt for Gisevius, who apparently will become a witness for Schacht.

I said nothing and was merely taking notes when Funk said with a quick return to his shallow good humor: “You know, psychiatrists interest me. My uncle was a great psychiatrist in Hamburg. My own psychology is very complicated.”

I told him that I would be most interested in hearing his own view of himself.

“I’m a man who has suffered all his life from depressions. It’s probably connected with my artistic tendencies. As a child I was a somnambulist until the age of five or six. During the time of the full moon I am easily upset. And strangely, after a depression was once over, I sometimes did my best work. It resulted in a strong manic reaction. In other words I had to be either up or down. This started in my childhood. Even as a child I had a tendency to melancholic feelings. It was probably inherited from my mother. She was very musical and melancholically inclined.”

At that moment he was told that church services had begun and he reluctantly left the cell, after reassurance that I would return.

Funk is again working on his defense. He is, as ever, eager for company and an audience reaction to his rationalizations. I asked him what point in his defense he was preparing as I walked in with Mr. Triest. He said he was addressing the issue of the elimination of Jews from economic life, which he says the prosecution wrongly charges to him. After we seated ourselves and lit cigarettes, he proceeded to enlighten me on the events of 1938.