The Nuremberg Interviews (70 page)

Was it true that Heydrich had been retired from the navy? “Yes, but I personally don’t know whether it was of his own free will or if he was forced to leave.” What was his opinion of Heydrich? He replied evasively, “I never knew him at all in the navy. In the SS later on, he was one of the leaders, and I had frequent contact with him officially, but of his personal nature or behavior, I don’t know. I think that everything he did was ordered from above.”

Pohl joined the Nazi Party in August 1926, while he was in the navy. He said that he would not have been permitted to join a political party as an officer, but that his position as paymaster was classified as “navy civil servant” rather than officer. “Therefore, I could join the party. Later on, in 1933, paymasters became administrative officers and could not engage in political activity. But at the time, I was a civil servant, and not an officer, and could become a party member.” Did he then relinquish his membership in the party when he became an officer? “No. The whole thing came up just about the time I went over to the SS. If I had stayed another half year in the navy, I would have been obliged to resign from the party.

“After Himmler talked to me about my letter and his investigation of Heydrich, I told him that I agreed with him. Himmler then advised me to join his ranks as an administrator, and told me to think it over. That was in May 1933. Himmler became very insistent and wrote me one letter after another urging that I take over the administrative organization of the SS. In December 1933 and January 1934, he invited me to Berlin and Munich, and showed me the whole SS administrative setup and the many complex problems that were involved. It was only in February 1934, after I saw what a big job was in store for me, that I finally accepted.”

What had Himmler shown him? “Mainly, he showed me the SS headquarters in Berlin and Munich and outlined my job.” Did Himmler also
show him any concentration camps at the time? “No, no. We didn’t even speak of them.” Did he know of the existence of concentration camps at the time? He hesitated, looked at the floor blankly for several moments, asked me to repeat the question, and finally said, “No.”
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In February 1934, he began to “organize and build up” the SS. “When I took over my office, the SS was a comparatively small organization, like a union, with a group here and there in various towns and cities. I started by installing administrative commands in various key cities, and I selected personnel who would be fit for their jobs. I inaugurated schools that taught these administrative officials for a few weeks before they were dispatched to take over my branch offices all over Germany. I achieved a sound administration in the SS, with orderly bookkeeping and financial sections.”

I asked Pohl to tell me, if he would, the high points in his career since 1934.

“When I came to the SS in 1934, there was only the general SS. The armed SS didn’t even exist. The office to which I was appointed was not independent, or rather, not as independent as it became later. At first, my office was part of the SS main office and was simply known as the administrative office. In 1935–36, things changed when the SS general service troops was created. This was the predecessor of the armed SS and consisted of two small units, each of company strength, located mainly in Stuttgart and Munich. These were financed by the Reich. It was then that my work broadened and my office became more independent. Of course, in my administrative directives, I had to respect the leaders of the Reich because the budgets of those SS companies were covered by the government. It did not end with those two companies — it was to grow by leaps and bounds.

“Between 1934 and 1936, the administrative office under my jurisdiction was removed from the SS main office and became an independent organization under the name of the Office for Budget and Building.”

“From those units of the SS general service troops, the armed SS was finally created in 1939. From 1934 to 1939, the whole business was embodied in the Reich budget and removed from the party, so that by 1939 the entire armed SS was paid for by the Reich. The general SS continued to be financed by the party and always remained a party organization.”
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“Until 1939, I had been only a lieutenant in the general SS. In 1939, I
was promoted to the rank of general in the armed SS. I began to receive my pay from the Reich instead of from the party. Also, in about the year 1939, the Office for Budget and Building was revised and became known as the Economic and Administrative Main Office, and I remained chief of it until the capitulation.”

He continued with his description of the intricacies of the SS organization over which he presided. His only superior in the SS was Himmler himself.

“In my office, I kept two budgets, one for the party and one for the Reich. Naturally, as time went on, the Reich budget was overwhelmingly the larger.

“My principal business relationships outside of the SS were with Treasury Minister Schwarz and Finance Minister Lutz Count Schwerin von Krosigk. I had very little to do with the Economic Ministry. During a period of ten years, I saw Funk but twice, and I saw Puhl, Funk’s Reichsbank representative, only two or three times.”

I inquired about the nature of his business with Funk and Puhl. He replied cryptically, “With Funk, I discussed general economic questions about the eastern region. As for Puhl, I arranged with him to deposit valuables from the concentration camps in the Reichsbank. As I mentioned yesterday, Puhl also helped me to secure funds from foreign countries to buy land in the East, food in Hungary and Romania, and so forth.”

Whence came these funds of foreign countries that Puhl had helped secure for the SS? Pohl seemed surprised at my question. “Naturally from the Reichsbank. That was the only organization that would have Austrian schillings, French francs, Hungarian pengös, and other foreign currencies.”

What sort of valuables had Pohl arranged to deposit in the Reichsbank in his conferences with Puhl? “Mostly valuables from the Jews,” he answered breezily. “There were rings and other gold things that were sent from the concentration camps to my office in Berlin. It was then my responsibility to deliver them to the Reichsbank.” Did these gold articles contain anything besides rings? “Oh, everything a man has on him that might be made of gold, such as money, watches, rings, and sometimes little bars of gold.” Were there any other types of gold articles taken from the concentration camp victims and deposited in the Reichsbank by the SS? “Nothing.”

I said that I had heard other stories, and in fact, had seen a film in court a short time ago, during the case of the defendant Funk, which showed other items of gold as well as those he mentioned. Were these articles taken from Jews who were exterminated in the gas chambers and shooting pits of the concentration camps? He replied simply, “Yes.” Were there any gold teeth or dental bridgework among the articles he had deposited? Pohl’s oxen facial expression did not change as he said, “I assumed that some of the gold bars which I received were melted gold teeth.”
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I remarked that this subject did not seem to disturb him very much. He probably felt it incumbent on him to display some emotion, and he made an attempt at righteous disapproval of such gold items. He spoke in a slightly louder tone of voice and with some gesticulation, which seemed theatrical. “What could I do? I never ordered those things to be taken. It was not my responsibility. I didn’t ask for them to be sent to my office. There they were, and I was supposed to bring them to the Reichsbank, and so I did. I never inspected the gold teeth or bridgework personally because I was too busy with other duties. Do you think I went downstairs myself to unload the trucks and open the sacks to look inside? I was a very busy executive! I had an expert in charge of those gold articles — several experts who changed from time to time. Usually the expert was a man from Office Group A or B, which was part of the SS main office.”

Had his office given directives about the securing of this gold from concentration camp victims? “None whatever. In fact, I was surprised the first time those gold articles arrived. The whole business was discussed by Funk, Himmler, and Schwerin von Krosigk, and they arranged for the articles to be sent first to my office for accounting before depositing them in the Reichsbank. I found out about it later. As far as I was concerned, it was a surprise.”

Once these sacks of gold articles arrived, had he ever inquired whence they came or upon whose orders? Pohl thought for a while and replied blandly, as if he were talking about stocks and bonds, “I really can’t remember the first time they arrived. I assume that the first shipment was accompanied by a man from the concentration camp itself, but I personally didn’t bother with details like that because I had more important things to do than unload a truck or inspect the contents of the sacks. I had my experts do that for me. It is also possible that the fellow who
brought the gold articles never saw me personally. I had 1,400 to 1,500 people employed in my office in Berlin. Throughout the Reich, I had over three hundred branch offices. Whenever gold shipments from the concentration camps arrived, an officer of the day reported it to me. You must conceive the whole picture as it really was. I had five or six generals working under me. I never brought the gold articles to the Reichsbank personally.”

I persisted: Had it ever occurred to him that this was gold with human blood on it? “That it came from exterminated Jews I knew and everyone knew. But I didn’t touch it. It was merely sent through my office by Himmler, with the arrangement and agreement of Funk and Schwerin von Krosigk, on the way to the Reichsbank.”

Had he ever objected to the whole business? “No. Nobody asked for my opinion. It would have done no good to protest anyway. For example, I protested against the entire concentration camp responsibility, when the camps were placed under my authority in 1942. I said that I was just an administrative officer and had no desire to be in charge of all the concentration camps. My protest was ignored, and I was saddled with the concentration camps because I had so efficiently handled the labor and factories within the camps. I accept responsibility for the camps, but as far as measures against the Jews, I had nothing to do with them. Those orders came from the RSHA. Himmler sent orders to Kaltenbrunner, who transmitted them to Mueller of the Gestapo, and the latter had the entire extermination program under him. That was the way all of Himmler’s orders went. I did not participate in the murder of the Jews.”

I remarked that nevertheless, he did run all the concentration camps. “Yes, but the camps had nothing to do with it. Himmler chose certain camps and, together with Kaltenbrunner and Mueller, ordered the commandants of these camps to carry out the extermination program. This was done in the chain of command as I have just told you. I emphasize that it was Himmler to Kaltenbrunner to Mueller to Gluecks, who was also one of my subordinate generals, to the individual concentration camp commandants, who had been selected by Himmler to perform the exterminations. Otherwise, Himmler would have had to give the orders to me because I was technically in charge of the concentration camps. What I am trying to bring out is that although I am responsible for the camps, and the extermination program took place within these camps, I
am not responsible for the extermination program itself, because these orders did not go through me, but went through the chain of individuals I have just mentioned.

“I had eleven main concentration camps under my command.
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From these eleven camps, internees were sent to other so-called labor camps. That was my job. I had nothing to do with the final solution of the Jews. That was an act done by camp personnel such as the commandants. Of course, the center of all those orders for the extermination of the Jews was Mueller of the Gestapo, who received his orders from Kaltenbrunner, who carried out the plans of Himmler.

“Mueller was the successor of Theodor Eicke, who had been in charge of concentration camps for ten years.
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Gluecks continued in charge of Office Group D, which was part of my office but was specifically the office for concentration camps. All of those exterminations were talked over by Gluecks and Mueller, who had very secret conferences every week.”

Was not Gluecks’s concentration camp office a part of the large administrative office headed by Pohl himself? “Yes, but as I told you, Gluecks did not take orders in regard to the extermination program from me, but directly from Mueller.”

I commented that it seemed to me that as Gluecks’s chief, Pohl was responsible for what Gluecks did. “Well, those were special duties Himmler gave to Gluecks. The same thing is true with Hans Kammler, also one of my subordinates, but at the same time he was in charge of reprisal weapons, and in that special job was in direct connection with Speer, the munitions minister. Those were the V-1 and V-2 bombs and other reprisal weapons.
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That too had nothing to do with me, although Kammler was under me.

“I can give you another example. First Lieutenant August Frank was also one of my subordinates, but in his special job he would go to Hitler personally.
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He was in charge of remodeling the entire armed forces — a tremendous job that included the army, navy, air force, and Labor Service. I had nothing to do with it. Incidentally, for the past year, I have had so little contact with the world, I don’t know whether Frank is alive or dead, captured or not. So you can see that Gluecks, Kammler, and Frank, who were all subordinate generals in my office, each had special jobs in which I had nothing to say.”

Did Pohl know Eichmann, one of the foremost organizers of the
extermination program? “Only by sight. He was under Mueller in the Gestapo — not a member of my office.”

As a human being, did Pohl approve of the extermination program practiced by the Nazis? He replied without too much feeling, but some attempt at righteousness, “I always felt it would be nauseating — as a man.”

Did he have any other comment on his attitude toward the extermination program? “What can I say? If I knew in 1934 what I know now, I would have remained in the navy. I didn’t know that this was going to happen and I didn’t know that Germany was going to lose the war and be in ruins.”