Conversations with Myself (22 page)

STENGEL: In your bedroom?

MANDELA: Yes, in the bedroom…mostly in the bedroom. And in the morning I would sweep them out, and there were also mosquitoes. But I slept very nicely.
Then
the following day in the afternoon, Kobie Coetsee, the minister of justice, came and…wanted to know how this building was – the house – [and] went from [room] to [room] inspecting it. We went outside inspecting the security walls, and he says, ‘No, these security walls must be raised’…He was very careful and he…wanted to make sure that…I was comfortable, and he also brought me some nice,
very
expensive wines…He was
very
kind, very gentle, and then he told me…‘No, we’ll move you here. This is a stage between prison and release. We are doing so because we hope you’ll appreciate it. We want to introduce some confidentiality in the discussions between ourselves and yourself.’ And I appreciated that. That’s what happened.

STENGEL: And did you feel in between being free and being in prison when you were there?…

MANDELA: Well, one felt it, because what they did was to fence the place apart from the security wall, and [made it so] that there was
plenty
of [space for] movement; I could move…in the area, on the grounds. The warder, who was doing the catering for me, Warrant Officer Swart,
¹³
would come at 7 a.m. and leave at 4 [p.m.]. No keys. I could stay outside as long as I want. And then when he [left] for his house, there would be warders on guard duty for the night, and I had a swimming pool…And so I was very relaxed in this area. The only thing was that I was surrounded by barbed…wire and a security wall; otherwise I was free…

[Swart] was prepared to cook
and
wash the dishes. But…I took it upon myself, to break the tension and a possible resentment on his part that he has to serve a prisoner by cooking and then washing dishes, and I offered to wash dishes and he refused…He says that is his work. I said, ‘No, we must share it.’ Although he insisted, and he was genuine, but I
forced
him, literally forced him, to allow me to do the dishes, and we established a
very
good relationship…A
really
nice chap, Warder Swart, a
very
good friend of mine…In fact, man, just give – just give me a plain sheet of paper because I must phone the commissioner of prisons and just phone him again, man.

13. FROM A CONVERSATION WITH RICHARD STENGEL ABOUT WHAT HE LEARNED IN PRISON

I am not in a position to identify any single factor which I can say impressed me, but firstly there
was
the policy of the government which was ruthless and very brutal and you have to go to jail to discover what the real policy of a government is…behind bars…But at the same time one immediately discovers that not all warders are beasts. Of course that is the main policy and the average warder is a brutal man, but nevertheless there were good fellows, human beings, and who treated us
very
well and who tried within the regulations and sometimes a little…outside the regulations, outside the regulations, who tried to make us feel at home.

And then there was the question of the
militancy
of the prisoners. One would have expected with the
harsh
conditions that existed, especially in the sixties…our people, you know, to be cowed down. Not at all, they fought right from the beginning, and some of the people who led those fights were…hardly known, who are still hardly known even today…And you found, you know, the
resistance
, the ability of the human spirit to resist injustice
right
inside prison. And…you learn that you don’t have to have a degree to have the qualities of a leader, the qualities of a man who wants to fight injustice wherever he is…There were many men who could take a…militant stand…who would prefer punishment and even assault, rather than to give in…In the section in which we were, you had people who were literate, widely read, travelled overseas, and it was a pleasure to speak to them…When you sat down and had a discussion with them you felt that you had learned a lot.

14. FROM A CONVERSATION WITH RICHARD STENGEL ABOUT THE POLICE’S HARASSMENT OF WINNIE MANDELA

They had been harassing Comrade Winnie for the twenty-seven years I had been away, [and] what I criticised was the
element
of propaganda and publicity they gave to it…[When] Comrade Winnie…landed in Jan Smuts [International Airport] after seeing me, there was an unusually large press corps and they asked questions relating to the case, and then Comrade [Winnie] got into the car…and drove to Orlando. She had a bus which accommodated some of [her] supporters.
Along
the way to Soweto the police
stopped
…the bus, searched it and seized it. Now that was unnecessary. It was just a way of giving publicity to the country and the world…They could have…quietly and in a dignified way investigated and even [taken] the bus if they thought it was their duty to seize it…But they didn’t do that…Secondly…when they…went to raid…the house they brought the SABC [South African Broadcasting Corporation], and the
whole
raid was shown [on television]. It was about 3 a.m…and my wife was shown there in [her] nightgown and my daughter…Some of the chaps were stripped naked in the back rooms…So there was a great deal of publicity. It was no longer just a police investigation, it was a propaganda affair. And that is what I criticised.

15. FROM A LETTER TO CHIEF MANGOSUTHU BUTHELEZI, DATED 3 FEBRUARY 1989

One of the most challenging tasks facing the leadership today is that of national unity. At no other time in the history of the liberation movement has it been so crucial for our people to speak with one voice, and for freedom fighters to pool their efforts. Any act or statement, from whatever source, which tends to create or worsen divisions is, in the existing political situation, a fatal error which ought to be avoided at all costs…The struggle is our life and, even though the moment of victory may not be at hand, we can nevertheless make that struggle immensely enriching or absolutely disastrous. In my entire political career few things [have] distressed me as to see our people killing one another as is now happening.
¹⁴

16. CONVERSATION WITH AHMED KATHRADA ON WHETHER HE HAD ENDORSED A SPEECH BY WINNIE MANDELA ABOUT ‘NECKLACING’ – BURNING PEOPLE ALIVE BY LIGHTING PETROL-SOAKED TYRES AROUND THEIR NECKS

KATHRADA: You see there is this question of you…where you are supposed to have approved of the ‘necklace speech’ of Winnie.

MANDELA: Gee whiz.

KATHRADA:…Anthony Sampson has…sent me a transcript of a conversation…Now we don’t know who made these notes…
¹⁵
‘NM approved of WM’s necklace speech. He said that it was a
good
thing as there has not been one black person who has attacked WM. He however had some reservations on WM’s attack on Rex Gibson of the
Star
because Gibson had published a powerful defence on the speech a few days earlier’…

MANDELA: I expressly condemned the thing.

KATHRADA: [Sampson] says, ‘Regarding the contentious matter of Madiba’s alleged comments on Winnie’s “necklace speech” I thought you should see the document in which my remarks are based since this is apparently authentic and is in a public archive. I do not think I can ignore it,
but
, of course, I can state that the president firmly contradicts it. But it would be useful to explain or speculate how this misunderstanding came about.’

MANDELA: But how can he not take us into trust? Who is it that kept these archives?…There is nothing of the sort. I condemned the thing
unreservedly
…

KATHRADA:…I have also done it…

MANDELA: Absolutely untrue.

17. CONVERSATION WITH RICHARD STENGEL ABOUT STUDYING IN PRISON

STENGEL: Was that enjoyable in prison, to be studying law, or did it seem distant from what you were going through at the time? Or distant from the struggle?

MANDELA: No, it
was
. Law – I’m very much interested in law. But I was
too
busy on Robben Island. I made no progress
whatsoever
in studying. First year I was all right, second year I was all right, but the final year, I just didn’t have proper time to study because of the political problems, and I think I failed three times, the final. It is only…when I went to Pollsmoor [Prison] that I got a chance of…concentrating, especially when I was alone. Then I knew, right from the beginning, that I would pass. But apart from that, you know, I abandoned – I literally abandoned it.

18. FROM A CONVERSATION WITH RICHARD STENGEL

In the ANC [African National Congress], in addressing any particular problem, we normally start from opposite poles and debate the matter thoroughly…then reach a consensus which makes our decisions very strong. Generally speaking, on the island, Comrade [Harry] Gwala led one group with a particular approach and…because of his knowledge, his ability, his experience, he was able to influence a large number of our comrades.
¹⁶
But on almost every issue we eventually reach a consensus. And we were grateful for the fact that we had looked at the matter from
all
angles…On the question, for example, [of] the relationship between the ANC and the [Communist] Party, he was inclined to
blur
the distinction, and many of our debates were due to that fact. That whereas some of us wanted to keep the difference very wide, very clear, he tended to blur it. And there was perhaps some reason for that in prison because we wanted to speak with one voice. But still, it was not an accurate approach because the Party and the ANC have
always
been totally different even though they cooperated.

19. FROM A CONVERSATION WITH RICHARD STENGEL

Well, I used to like reading, as you know, during those days, before I was really busy…It was one of the things I miss now, you know, which I enjoyed in prison…I could wake up, have a bath, wait for the hospital doctor…then have breakfast,
then
I was…free to sit down and study…That what-you-call scene of Kutozov [in
War and Peace
], discussing whether they should defend Moscow or not, that was beautiful. When
everybody
was saying we
cannot
abandon the capital, his concern was that…the Russian army should be saved for winter because…Napoleon’s army would never be able to meet the Russian army during winter…‘I’m not concerned with buildings; that’s just emotion. I’m concerned with saving my army from destruction.’ And that was the attitude of [Zulu king] Shaka, too.
¹⁷
Shaka, when fighting…retreated against an attack by one of the tribes, and when they came to the Royal Kraal, then…his counsellors said, ‘No, let’s now resist; let’s stand.’ He says, ‘Why should I defend buildings?…Buildings can be destroyed today and built tomorrow, but an army which is destroyed, it will take years to build.’…[He] retreated, but made sure that along the way there was not a single morsel of food which the enemy could get – drove away their stock, carried away their mealies [maize] and millet, beans and so on. Made sure that there was no food at all.
Then
…this enemy army got tired and hungry…When they were retreating, he followed them –
very
close – and then…the enemy would stand…wanting a conflict to finish the threat. But he wouldn’t, he wouldn’t attack. When they stood he would stop and when they advanced he would retreat.

But eventually the enemy withdrew. They were now hungry, and when they slept…[Shaka] sent [his] men to mix amongst them because the uniform was the same…and at dead of night Shaka’s men would
stab
the chap next to him and then cry, you know, and you say…the wizard: ‘Umthakathi’s attacking me,’
and
everybody gets up, you see? So they didn’t sleep; he kept them awake and preparing to attack them when they are tired, you know, hungry, you know? So that went on, you see…until they reached…a big river where…there was one crossing and…the enemy had to break its ranks, in order to cross. When
half
of them had crossed, he then
charged
, and attacked them and wiped them out…then crossed, to wipe out the remainder. So he had tactics, you see, like those of Kutuzov against Napoleon.

20. CONVERSATION WITH AHMED KATHRADA

MANDELA: I could have made a lot of money when I was in Victor Verster. You know, two newspapers, totally different…

KATHRADA: Ah.

MANDELA:…came to take a picture of me and one promised me half a million.

KATHRADA: That appeared in the papers.

MANDELA: Is that so?

KATHRADA: No, no, wait a bit or was [Warder Christo] Brand telling me? But I knew of that.

MANDELA:
Half
a million!

KATHRADA: Ja. Oh ja. No, Brand told us.

MANDELA: So I say, ‘No, I wouldn’t agree to that thing.’

KATHRADA: Ja.

MANDELA: I said no.

KATHRADA: But wasn’t that while you were in the clinic [Constantiaberg Medi-Clinic]?

MANDELA: Hey?

KATHRADA: Wasn’t it while you were in the clinic?

MANDELA: The
other
one was while I was in the clinic.

KATHRADA: Ja.

MANDELA: But the other one was at Victor Verster. I say, ‘Look man, I’m negotiating, and for
these
people to see that I’ve abused my position here…

KATHRADA: Ah.

MANDELA:…it would destroy my credibility. I can’t do that.’ They say, ‘Half a million rand.’

KATHRADA: Ja.

MANDELA:…As poor as I am with children and grandchildren, you know?

KATHRADA: Ah.

MANDELA: And I didn’t want to think because I thought if I stopped and [thought] I would be tempted.

KATHRADA: Ja.

MANDELA: And I said, ‘No, no, no.’ I didn’t want, I don’t want [it] at all, and I became abrupt and loud, you see, because I thought also there was, you know, the bugging instruments.