Conversations with Myself (8 page)

17. CONVERSATION WITH AHMED KATHRADA

MANDELA: All that we have to say is that the number depended, you see, on the conditions in each particular area. There was no set number and most of the people were trained abroad, but a little later we felt it would be valuable to train people in the area where they were going to operate. But it must be understood that it was extremely difficult to do so, because we were dealing with a strong government, [a] strong enemy…who had the facilities to move around and to be able to detect what was being done on the ground. Under those circumstances we could only train just a few.

KATHRADA: Aha. All right, then page 135 [of
Long Walk to Freedom
draft] you are saying, ‘On the orders of MK [Umkhonto we Sizwe] High Command, in [the] early morning hours of December the 16th, home-made bombs were exploded at electric power stations and government offices in Jo’burg, PE [Port Elizabeth], Durban. One of our men was inadvertently killed, the first MK soldier to die in the line of duty.’ Mandela: That’s [Petrus] Molefe hey?
¹⁸

KATHRADA: Ja, now he says, ‘Was this the first death associated with MK? Did you have a feeling of responsibility?’ Mandela: Well, we say so, that he was the very first.

KATHRADA: Ja. Mandela: And naturally we had a sense of responsibility because he was our soldier, our cadre, and the death, you know, indicated…that we had not sufficiently trained people, and it was something very disturbing. But we took that, you see, in [our] stride; and casualties – you can’t avoid casualties when you are starting a new method of political activity.

18. CONVERSATION WITH RICHARD STENGEL

STENGEL: But the story where the Chief [Albert Luthuli] asked you why you hadn’t consulted with him about, about the formation of MK, was that on this trip or was that when you came back from Africa?

MANDELA: No, no, no. It was before we took the trip…But the Chief had actually forgotten because, as I told you, we had a meeting of the ANC National Executive in which we discussed the question of taking up arms. We eventually agreed after he had advised against it, and when we went to the joint meetings now of the ANC, the South African Indian Congress, the South African Congress of Trade Unions, the Federation of [South] African Women,
then
the Chief asked us, ‘Well, my comrades, we have taken this decision.’ In fact he asked at the meeting, ‘We have taken this decision that we must start violence and establish an army, but I would like to appeal to you: let’s take our original positions’ and as if the ANC has taken no decision. We agreed and we spent the
whole
night – we never slept – spent the
whole
night discussing the question of the formation – the start of the acts of violence. So for him to say that we didn’t consult him was just the fact that he was ill and he forgot very easily…But the matter was
thoroughly
debated.

19. CONVERSATION WITH AHMED KATHRADA ABOUT WILDLIFE

KATHRADA: Did you ever go to the zoo? In Johannesburg?

MANDELA: Oh, I see, yes, yes. Yes, I had seen most of the animals in the zoo.

KATHRADA: But you’ve never been to the Kruger National Park, at that time?

MANDELA: No, no. I only went to the Kruger National Park…

KATHRADA: After you came back.

MANDELA:…after I came back from jail.

Kathrada: Aha.

MANDELA: Have you ever been there?

KATHRADA: Ja. I went there, last December, also. Not this December, the December before.

MANDELA: And you saw?

KATHRADA:…The first time, ay man, we saw
nothing
.

MANDELA: Yes.

KATHRADA: What had happened is that it had rained.

MANDELA: Oh, I see.

KATHRADA: And the radio said it’s useless going because once it has rained the animals won’t come to their normal watering places.

MANDELA: Yes, quite. Yes, that’s true.

KATHRADA: So we saw just about nothing.

MANDELA: Mmm. But there, you know, to shoot an impala, you see, is just like committing suicide, you know; it’s murder.

KATHRADA: Ja.

MANDELA: Because they are so
trustworthy
. They are so
used
to visitors that they come and just watch you, and they don’t run away.

KATHRADA: Ja.

MANDELA: You
can’t
. I could never have the courage to shoot at those.

20. CONVERSATION WITH RICHARD STENGEL

STENGEL: Have you ever used that comparison before or since? The one with Christ and the money changers?

MANDELA: Yes. Yes. I think I must have done so, or might have done, because I know it very well…

STENGEL: Explain it to me now, how you would use that analogy…

MANDELA:…Whether you have to use peaceful methods or violent methods…is determined purely by the conditions…Christ used force because in
that
situation it is the
only
language that he could use. And…therefore there is no principle that force may not be used. It depends on the conditions. That is how I would approach the matter.

STENGEL: So under the circumstances then, it’s even Christian to use force because Christ had to resort to force?

MANDELA: Well,
everybody
– when the only way of making a forward movement, of solving problems, is the use of force: when peaceful methods become inadequate. That is a lesson of history, right down the centuries and…in every part of the world.

.....................................................................................

Pages from the diary Mandela kept during his trip through Africa and to London, UK, in 1962.

1. EXTRACTS FROM THE DIARY HE KEPT DURING HIS TRIP THROUGH AFRICA AND TO LONDON IN 1962

17 JANUARY 1962

The immigration officer sees me again and appeals to me that on no account must I move around as I might be kidnapped by the SAP [South African Police].

I gain the impression that whilst there may [be] genuine concern for my safety, he also wishes to make sure that I should meet people in the BP [Bechuanaland Protectorate].

29 JANUARY 1962

I call for a visa at the Ethiopian Embassy. On the way we pass the Conference Hall and I am told to take cover and look the other way as Colin Legum might recognise me.
¹

15 APRIL 1962

I spend the day quietly reading in my hotel.

19 APRIL 1962

I fly from Freetown to Monrovia. The aerodrome, Robertsfield is 48 miles away from the city.

I lodge at the Monrovia City Hotel.

20 APRIL 1962

I spend the day reading.

23 APRIL 1962

I spend the day quietly in the hotel reading.

25 APRIL 1962

2 pm

I meet the President.
²
He informs me that the people of Liberia would do everything in their power to help our people in their struggle for self-determination. Sends his regards to Chief [Albert Luthuli].

26 APRIL 1962

I miss my plane to Accra and I book for the following day at 9 am.

5 MAY 1962

OR [Oliver Tambo] phones to say he will arrive on 7/5. He telephones from Stockholm.

7 MAY 1962

OR arrives at lunch time. We meet head of African mission at 7/30 pm and have a friendly chat with him.

27 MAY 1962

We leave Lagos by Pan Am for Monrovia on our way to Conakry. After stopping for 45 minutes at Accra, plane reaches Monrovia at 12 noon. We drive to Monrovia City Hotel.

1 JUNE 1962

We fly to Dakar and put up at Hotel de La Paix.

7 JUNE 1962

We fly by BOAC to L[ondon].

15 JUNE 1962

I meet David Astor, Editor of the ‘Observer’.
³
Michael Scott and Colin Legum are present.
⁴
I explain the situation in SA. Discussions are most cordial and each expresses flattering and inspiring comments.

16 JUNE 1962

I see film of Zami, Zeni, Zindzi, Gompo and other scenes in South Africa.
⁵

18 JUNE 1962

OR and I fly by BOAC to Khartoum. We cross the Alps at about 6 pm and reach Rome at about 7 pm.

26 JUNE 1962

7/20 am we fly to Addis Ababa and are taken to Ras Hotel.

29 JUNE 1962

First lesson on demolitions start. Instructor Lt. Befekadu.

30 JUNE 1962

I have practice in demolitions.

1 JULY 1962

I spend the day writing up notes.

7 JULY 1962

Lt. Befekadu takes me out to a restaurant serving national dishes.

8 JULY 1962

Col Tadesse, Lt. Befekadu and I dine in small restaurant in town and thereafter go to the cinemas.

2. CONVERSATION WITH AHMED KATHRADA ABOUT HIS TRIP THROUGH AFRICA IN 1962

KATHRADA: Then ‘a plane was arranged for, and our first destination was a town in northern Botswana, Bechuanaland, called Kasane…’

MANDELA: Yes.

KATHRADA: ‘…that was strategically situated at the point where almost the whole of southern Africa met: Angola, Northern and Southern Rhodesia and South West Africa, as all these states were then known.’ Now, he is asking, this was your first plane trip, wasn’t it?

MANDELA: Yes.

KATHRADA: Your very first?

MANDELA: No, no, no, no, no. It was not. During the Defiance Campaign in 1952, I travelled a couple of times on a plane.

KATHRADA: Aha.

MANDELA: To Port Elizabeth.

KATHRADA: ‘If it was your first trip, were you apprehensive or eager? What kind of a plane was it? It may seem trivial but this is just the sort of telling human moment that readers will care about. The paradoxical combination of your important mission with your first trip abroad.’

MANDELA:…No, it was not the first time, but nevertheless, there were some scary moments…we came across a storm and the turmoil, you know, was very disturbing, and then we reached the hotel at Kasane and the one landing strip was waterlogged, and by the time we came there, elephants and other animals – zebras – were grazing there and so we couldn’t land…because you can easily frighten animals, you see, by flying low…So we went to land elsewhere and we flew over the hotel…And we flew over the lodge to indicate to the hotel owner that we had arrived and pointed out, you know, where we were going to land, which was further away from the hotel…. He [the hotel owner] came late and…said that along the way they came across elephants…[that] refused to move away…for some time, so they had to stop there to wait for them to move…

KATHRADA: Ah.

MANDELA: It was already dusk and as we were going back we saw a lioness sleeping across the road…just more or less a track.

KATHRADA: Ja.

MANDELA:…That was my first experience of the bush, really. And during the night the lions, you see, were roaring, man, and it appeared as if they were just outside the rondavel. Because when [they] roared, you know…the window – the glass – vibrated, and I was frightened to go out.

3. CONVERSATION WITH RICHARD STENGEL ABOUT MEETING EMPEROR HAILE SELASSIE OF ETHIOPIA

STENGEL: So tell me about the Emperor, Haile Selassie. You met him.

MANDELA:
That
was an impressive fellow, man, very impressive. It was my first time to watch…a head of state going through the formalities…the motions of formality. This chap came wearing a uniform and he then came and bowed. But it was a bow which was not a bow – he stood erect, you see, but just brought down his head…then…took his seat and addressed us, but he spoke in [Amharic]…Then, at the end of the conference he saw every, each delegation…and Comrade Oliver Tambo asked me to speak for our delegation, to speak to him. And I explained to him very briefly what was happening in South Africa…He was seated on his chair, listening like a log…not nodding, just immovable, you know, like a statue…The next time I saw him was when we attended a military parade, and
that
was very impressive [
whistles
], absolutely impressive. And he was then giving awards…to the soldiers; everyone who had graduated got a certificate…A very fine ceremony – a very dignified chap – and he also gave medals. There [were] American military advisors…[and] groups of military advisors from various countries…And so he gave medals to these chaps too. But to see whites going to a black monarch emperor and bowing was also very interesting.

4. CONVERSATION WITH AHMED KATHRADA ABOUT HIS MILITARY TRAINING

KATHRADA: Then, they want to know on the same page 166 [of
Long Walk to Freedom
draft], ‘Did you ever become proficient with a pistol? Did you receive more military instruction than this at Oujda?’

MANDELA: Oh yes, at Oujda, yes, I did. But the perfection was in Ethiopia because I spent two months there and I was taught now how to fire various guns [at] different targets, you know?…And different distances, stationary targets and then a moving target, you see. They would, what-you-call, they would bring it up and then it would disappear, come up [and]…disappear. It would run, you see, and you had to hit it, you see, running. So all that perfection, you see, took place in…Ethiopia. And then the fatigue marches…where you have a very
heavy
bag, you know – round[s] of bullets around the waist. Then you carry on you [a] knapsack, a lot of provisions and so on, and a water bottle, and your gun, you know…and you travel over mountains and so on. A bit…strenuous.

5. CONVERSATION WITH AHMED KATHRADA ABOUT FIRING A GUN

Kathrada: Then…this is about the training you were having: ‘I had never fired a gun before, but it felt comfortable in my hands. I aimed, pulled the trigger and the next thing I know the bullet had raised some powder on the rock. My instructors began to exclaim something in Arabic and complimented me on my shot. But as it turned out, it was a lucky one for I did not hit the rock again in several more attempts.’

MANDELA: Actually, no, even the
first
one, I didn’t hit the rock.

KATHRADA: Oh.

MANDELA: But it was
next
to the rock.

KATHRADA: Aha.

MANDELA: And having regard to the distance because we had the river in between us. We had a valley, a long valley, and the river and then this target was right across, and I just hit next to the stone.

KATHRADA: Aha.

MANDELA: And that was sufficiently…close to them for a man who was handling the gun for the first time. I think I told you how this chap taught me – he couldn’t speak the language.

KATHRADA: Ja.

MANDELA: Arabic.

KATHRADA: Carry on.

MANDELA: Yes, you know? I think I demonstrated – I don’t know whether I did to you, but he couldn’t speak English and
all
that he did was to take the gun, you see, and it was a heavy Mauser. He took the gun and said [
sound of quick tapping
], you see?

KATHRADA: Ah.

MANDELA: I should hold it
tight
, and then he said I should, what you call, I should stand
firmly
on the ground, he says [
sound of foot stomping once
].

KATHRADA: Ah.

MANDELA: [
another foot stomp
] You see?

KATHRADA: Ah.

MANDELA: And he was very good, you see; I mean without being able to talk [English]…

KATHRADA: Aha.

MANDELA: But he really was a very good chap. But I didn’t
hit
the stone.

KATHRADA: Aha.

MANDELA: I hit next to it.

KATHRADA: Next to it.

MANDELA: Yes.

6. FROM HIS UNPUBLISHED AUTOBIOGRAPHICAL MANUSCRIPT WRITTEN IN PRISON

In spite of plunder by the colonialists Egypt still is a country of fabulous wealth in ancient art and culture. I have always been anxious to see the pyramids, the sphinx and the embalmed body of Ramses II, perhaps one of the strongest pharaohs that ever ruled that country. I spent the whole morning at the museum making detailed notes and later Oliver [Tambo] took me to Gizeh where we saw the colossal stone structure with its square base firmly planted on the ground where the sloping sides met at the apex, all done with mortar and giant blocks of stone with which a monumental edifice was built, held in position by their own weight.

Oliver took me for a boat ride around the island on the Nile and as a boy of about 9 skillfully manoeuvred the boat we were going to use, my otherwise fearless and calm comrade-in-arms widened his eyes, watched the whole operation suspiciously and explained: ‘Are we going to be driven by this small boy? Oh no.’ At the same time he stepped back and stood at a safe distance. But when an elderly man took the controls we relaxed and I thoroughly enjoyed the one hour ride on Africa’s longest river.

My chief interest was to find out the type of men who founded the high civilisation of olden times that thrived in the Nile Valley as far back as 5000 B.C. This was not merely a question of archaeological interest but one of cardinal importance to African thinkers who are primarily concerned with the collection of scientific evidence to explode the fictitious claim of white propagandists that civilisation began in Europe and that Africans have no rich past that can compare with theirs. I discussed the matter with one of the curators at the museum but he was extremely cautious and although he drew my attention to several theories on the matter, for which I was extremely grateful, I was no wiser on the subject than I was before I entered the museum.

7. CONVERSATION WITH RICHARD STENGEL ABOUT ALGERIAN FREEDOM FIGHTERS

MANDELA: Mostefai? Yes, yes, he was the head of the Algerian delegation in Morocco.

STENGEL: Right. Now he talked to you quite extensively, didn’t he?

MANDELA: Oh, yes, for several days.

STENGEL: Right.

MANDELA: Reviewing the Algerian Revolution. Oh, that was a masterpiece, man, I can tell you. Very few things inspired me as the briefing from Dr Mostefai.

STENGEL: Really, how come? Why?

MANDELA:…He was reviewing to us, you know, the
history
of the Algerian Revolution. The problems that they had. How they started. They started thinking that they would be able to defeat the French in the battlefield, inspired by what happened in…Vietnam. Dien Bien Phu. They were inspired by that, and they thought they could defeat the French…He says even their uniforms, their outfits, were so designed for an army that was going to defeat the French. Then they realised that they could not do so. They have to fight guerrilla warfare, and he says even their own, their uniform, changed because it was now an army that would be on the run, either attacking [or] moving away fast. They had what-you-call trousers, you see, which were narrow down there, you know, and lighter shoes. It was
most
fascinating, and then they kept the French army moving.

They would attack from the Tunisian side, launch an offensive that side, and then the French – because of this – they would
move
their army from the western side, from the Moroccan border, because the Algerians were fighting from Tunisia and from Morocco. Although they had also units operating inside, but the main army was fighting from these two areas, two countries…Then they would then start an offensive from Tunisia,
deep
into Algeria, and the French would
move
their army from the west, from the borders of Morocco in order to stop this offensive. And when they
moved
that army, the offensive would start on the Moroccan side, you see? And the French would again move, you know, their forces to the Moroccan side, and they kept them moving like that. Now
all
those, man, were very interesting, absolutely interesting.

STENGEL: And were you thinking this might be a model for how MK [Umkhonto we Sizwe] would be in South Africa?