Conversations with Myself (10 page)

STENGEL: Oh is it really?

MANDELA: Yes.
Red Star Over China
– Edgar Snow…
Red Star Over China
– Edgar Snow. Well written, simple and sympathetic, but not a communist. You know? Not a communist, that was the…advantage because he could also criticise.
But
it was a constructive work, and when he described its origin in the south-eastern part of China where they started, and then how Chiang Kai-shek and others tried, you know, to circle, encircle this area and to
squeeze
it and to
crush
this revolution, and how they fought against it. And when it became clear that if they
remain
there they would be crushed, they decided to
break
through this steel wall and went down [to] China and then went
right
up to the borders of the Soviet Union and that is where they started the offensive fight.

STENGEL: Right, the long march.

MANDELA: Yes, that long march, you see? That was just a miracle. Some of the incidents just showed, you know, it was just like magic, how they escaped.

STENGEL: So what, from your reading, what were the lessons that you learned that you wanted to apply to MK [Umkhonto we Sizwe] in the sense that you had read about movements that failed? So what did you want to avoid to prevent MK from failing that you learned as a result of the reading?

MANDELA: Well it was really to find out firstly, what are the fundamental principles of starting a revolution? An armed revolution, armed warfare. That’s why I read Clausewitz because it did not deal with guerrilla warfare; it deals with the rules of war, you know, principles of war…Oh, by the way, I read also
The Revolt
by Menachem Begin.

STENGEL: Oh.

MANDELA: Yes,
The Revolt
by Menachem Begin. Now, that was now something which was very encouraging to us, because here was a movement in a country which had no mountains and…their base was inside Israel…which was occupied by the British Army from top to bottom, you see? From border to border. But they conducted that struggle in a
very
powerful way and that really was very interesting. I also read about the Partisans in France, Mitterrand, and in Eastern Europe. And so this is the type of literature I read.

21. CONVERSATION WITH RICHARD STENGEL

MANDELA: That period underground…I read Clausewitz, I…read
Commando
by Deneys Reitz. And I…read two books…on Malaysia, and I…read this book on the Philippines, on the Hukbalahap, and
Born of the People
by Luis Taruk. And I had read the works of Mao Zedong. But here I was just…learning how to use a gun [in Ethiopia].

STENGEL: Right. It was practical.

MANDELA: It was practical, yes.

STENGEL: Oh, so you went there to two shooting ranges, is that right, that you went to?

MANDELA: Yes, that’s right. There was a shooting range for all the soldiers, which was quite some distance away from the camp. Then there was one for…the Emperor’s guard – guard of honour – and which was nearer. I went to those two.

STENGEL: What kind of a shot were you?

MANDELA: No, for a…I mean, reasonable, I was reasonable, because in [Morocco] that was where I used – I handled a gun for the first time. And they just taught you, you know, how you handle a gun and its mechanism, you see. They stripped it, and you knew the various parts. They put it together and they asked you to do that several times until you are quite perfect.

22. FROM A CONVERSATION WITH AHMED KATHRADA ABOUT THE ARMED STRUGGLE

Well…one of the controversial issues when we established MK was…control. We wanted to avoid militarism; we wanted to create…a military force which was under a central political organisation where they took instructions from the political organisation, and that is the principle on which it was established…We stressed that that training must go hand in hand with political training. They must know why they are going to take up arms and fight. They must be taught that the revolution was not just a question of pulling a trigger and firing – it was an organisation that was intended to take over political power. That is what we stressed.

1. FROM A CONVERSATION WITH RICHARD STENGEL

Plays like
Antigone
…Those Greek plays, you know, are really worth reading. It’s like the classics, you know the works of Tolstoy and so on, because after reading…that literature, you always come out…feeling very elevated and your sensitivities to…fellow human beings having been deepened. It is one of the greatest experiences…you can have, you know, to read a Greek tragedy and Greek literature in general…

2. CONVERSATION WITH AHMED KATHRADA ON WHETHER HE WAS BETRAYED

KATHRADA: You know, of course, that they phoned Walter [Sisulu] to say that
I
had given you up?
¹

MANDELA: The…press?

KATHRADA: No, it was an anonymous phone call…he tells Walter…‘I’m just tipping you off that the person who gave up Mandela is Kathrada.’

MANDELA: Yoh!

KATHRADA: [
laughs
]

MANDELA: Yoh!…Good God. Because those things are smashed by events.

KATHRADA: Ja, well remember they blamed Albertina [Sisulu] also.
²

MANDELA: Yes, yes quite. Yes. I know they blamed Albertina and Walter.

KATHRADA: Ja.

MANDELA:
That
touched me. I didn’t know about yours.

KATHRADA: Ja.

MANDELA: But the one of Walter, man. You know, in fact, when he came to see me in jail, you know he didn’t look like Walter; he seemed to have been shaken by that accusation.

KATHRADA: I think the press even came out with something that Albertina and Winnie [Mandela] had a fight about this, about this accusation that…Walter and Albertina had given you up…

MANDELA: No, I know, what happened, you see, because I was reading the papers and this question about Walter was mentioned there.

KATHRADA: Ah.

MANDELA: And I had to discuss with him that ‘Look, I’ve got
complete
confidence in you…don’t even
worry
about that,’ and he
was
worried about that because people, you know will take advantage.

3. CONVERSATION WITH AHMED KATHRADA ABOUT HIS ARREST

KATHRADA: The publisher is asking, ‘
More
on your emotions…at realising that the game was up. Were you frightened that you might be shot?’
³

MANDELA: No, I had no such fright, you see, because I considered my options immediately this car passed and signalled us; because I looked at the rear-view mirror and I could see that there were cars behind and then they selected a very strategic place with a high bank on my left where I couldn’t run, run away, and I decided that the game was up. I could see the mountains, the Lesotho mountains…but I decided, you see, that it would be a risky thing and I decided just to remain. I had no fears of being shot, you know, once I decided I was not going to run away.

4. FROM A LETTER TO HILDA BERNSTEIN, DATED 8 JULY 1985, ABOUT THE RIVONIA TRIAL
⁴

How is your memory? It may well be that you no longer need it, with all the modern facilities which surround you – newspapers, good literature, archives, libraries, radio, television, videos, computers, and what have you. In my current circumstances, thinking about the past can be far more exacting than contemplating the present and predicting the course of future events. Until I was jailed I never fully appreciated the capacity of memory, the endless string of information the head can carry.

I still remember the day you sat behind me in Pretoria as Rusty [fellow accused Bernstein] was busy parrying off some of [prosecutor Percy] Yutar’s onslaughts. Quite early during the exchanges, I got the impression that it was not Yutar, but the man from Observatory, who was calling the shots. It also seemed to me that even [the judge, Quartus] de Wet was being disarmed, if not enchanted, by the gentle and self-assured manner with which the witness was brushing aside all that Yutar could throw in.

As we adjourned, I could not resist telling you that the witness was good. Can you recall how Mrs Bernstein retorted? ‘What do you mean good? He was brilliant!’ she shot back. Indeed, he was. If he had been as flat-footed as we were, he would also have been languishing in the cooler, never attended Tony’s wedding and, who knows, manpower problems in the family might have been compounded. For Keith, Francis, Patrick, Tony [Bernstein’s children] and you his return was certainly an unforgettable day.
⁵

I also remember that on the first day of the Pretoria exercise you had expressed some concern about how I and a colleague looked in our khaki outfits. But now, after praising your husband, you had some good things to say about our appearance. I can no longer recall whether I was able to chat to you the day Rusty was discharged. All I can remember now is reading a newspaper in a rubbish dump on Robben Island to the effect that he was in Zambia.
⁶

5. CONVERSATION WITH AHMED KATHRADA ABOUT PAC (PAN AFRICANIST CONGRESS) LEADER ROBERT SOBUKWE
⁷

KATHRADA: And Sobukwe was kept with the criminals in the cell next door.

MANDELA: Oh yes.

KATHRADA: And we managed to talk to him.

MANDELA: Aha.

KATHRADA: Of course, they treated him very badly.

MANDELA: Yes.

KATHRADA: Short trousers, no shoes.

MANDELA: Yes, that’s right.

KATHRADA: And we managed to speak to him and asked him…whether we could do anything for him. His request was tobacco and a spoon. So then, you know, there was this little hole.

MANDELA:
Ah
yes.

KATHRADA: We then smuggled in tobacco for him and, and a spoon and possibly some food, but I can’t remember that. But his
main
request was tobacco.

MANDELA: Yes, I know. I think that’s one of the things that killed him.

KATHRADA: Oh ja, lung cancer.

MANDELA: Mmm. Yes. Because he had TB [tuberculosis], you see.

KATHRADA: Aha.

6. CONVERSATION WITH AHMED KATHRADA

KATHRADA: Then you, page 15 [of
Long Walk to Freedom
draft], you are talking of the visit…the first visit that you got from Winnie [Mandela] at the Fort now. Ah, you are saying, ‘I thanked her for it’ – the clothes and a parcel she brought. Ah, ‘I thanked her for it and although we did not have much time, we quickly discussed family matters and I assured her of the strength of our cause, the loyalty of our friends and how it would be her love and devotion that would see me through whatever transpired’.

MANDELA: By the way, she brought me some silk pyjamas and nightgown, you see?

KATHRADA: Ja.

MANDELA: And I said, ‘No…’

KATHRADA: [
laughs
]

MANDELA: ‘…this outfit is not for this place.’ [
chuckles
]

7. CONVERSATION WITH RICHARD STENGEL

STENGEL: Tell me about when you had a blackout and you fainted.

MANDELA: Oh, I see. Ha! No I went with [Robert] Sobukwe to the hospital, to hospital, the what-you-call, prison hospital. I just fell. I wasn’t aware that there was anything wrong, and I even bruised…the side of my face and I had an opening somewhere. That’s all. I just fell and then got up – ooh, the reports that circulated outside – yussis! That this man is sick. He’s very sick. And I hadn’t felt anything. I don’t know why I fell. But I certainly was dizzy, and but after that, you see, nothing happened. I don’t know what had happened.

8. CONVERSATION WITH AHMED KATHRADA ABOUT ROBERT SOBUKWE

MANDELA: No, I was never confrontational towards Sobukwe. You must remember that Sobukwe was my client. I was his lawyer, and we respected each other very much, Sobukwe, because he was a very pleasant chap.

KATHRADA: Ja.

MANDELA: And a gentleman and there was never any confrontation and I got on
very well
with him in prison.

9. FROM A CONVERSATION WITH RICHARD STENGEL ABOUT NONRACIALISM

We have never accepted really multiracialism. Our demand is for a
nonracial
society, because when you talk of multiracialism, you are multiplying races; you are saying that you have in this country so many races. That is in a way to perpetuate the concept ‘race’, and we preferred to say we want a nonracial society.

…We discussed and said exactly what we are saying, that we are not multiracialist, we are nonracialist. We are fighting for a society where people will cease thinking in terms of colour…It’s not a question of race; it’s a question of ideas.

10. CONVERSATION WITH AHMED KATHRADA ABOUT CONSTABLE JOHANNES GREEFF, A POLICEMAN WHO HELPED FOUR COMRADES ARRESTED IN CONNECTION WITH THEIR CASE ESCAPE FROM CUSTODY
⁸

KATHRADA: You see, our chaps had promised him to pay him two thousand pounds and the money was delivered to Laloo [Chiba].
⁹

MANDELA: I see.

KATHRADA: And he was now…continuing the arrangement they had already started. The main bribery as far as I can remember, or persuading the chappie, was Mosie [Moolla].
¹⁰

MANDELA: I see.

KATHRADA: And to some extent, I suppose it was more of a collective thing, really.

MANDELA: Yes, quite, yes.

KATHRADA: And then…the arrangement was that Laloo will pay him and the money was then brought to Laloo’s place and this chap was supposed to pick it up, but when they wanted to pay him, he was there with the cops, you see, so they didn’t pay him.

MANDELA:
Oh!

KATHRADA: Ah.

MANDELA: Gee whiz!

KATHRADA: And then the fellow got arrested and he got six years…

MANDELA:
Oh!

KATHRADA:…this Greeff, and they released him after three years or something. He did serve a sentence, you see.

MANDELA: Is that so?

KATHRADA: And, I’m still going to get you this cutting that Harold [Wolpe] says in which you are quoted as saying that we must honour that debt.
¹¹

MANDELA: No, we must actually. If
that
was the, the background, if the young fellow was sent to jail.

KATHRADA: Oh
yes
! He served three years, at least, out of a six-year sentence. Now I was just mentioning to Joel the other day when we were talking about this. You know 2,000 pounds in those years, today what is its value, its worth?

MANDELA: Yes.

KATHRADA: A hang of a lot more.

MANDELA: Yes, mmm.

KATHRADA: And I was just thinking that perhaps what we should do is to give him one of these ANC [African National Congress] cars, which won’t cost us anything. And they
are
going to go to waste, a lot of these cars, I’m sure.

MANDELA: Just make a note of that man, just make a note.

KATHRADA: Mmm. I’ve got a note already, about Greeff, but I was going to take it further with you when we get this cutting from Harold, wherein, you are, you know, you are reported as having said that we must honour this…

MANDELA: Yes, quite.

KATHRADA:…this debt, but that was…

MANDELA:…You see, I would strongly urge, man, that we should honour it.

KATHRADA: Ja. It’ll also give us good publicity.

MANDELA: Yes, yes.

KATHRADA: This chap is now settled in the Cape…

MANDELA: Greeff?

KATHRADA: Greeff and…

MANDELA: And what is he doing?

KATHRADA: He’s farming, I think.

MANDELA: Shame, he might be in difficulty, I’m telling you. Farming is not an easy thing.

KATHRADA: So I think that we should…

MANDELA: No, no, no, let’s discuss that. Let’s discuss that.

11. CONVERSATION WITH AHMED KATHRADA ABOUT PLEADING NOT GUILTY IN THE RIVONIA TRIAL

MANDELA: We never pleaded guilty in the Rivonia Trial. We pleaded
not
guilty, remember?

KATHRADA: Ja.

MANDELA: We said that it is the government…

KATHRADA: Exactly.

MANDELA:…that is the criminal and that should be…

KATHRADA: Exactly. What he is mistaking it with is that…

MANDELA: Yes.

KATHRADA:…in your statement…

MANDELA: That’s right.

KATHRADA:…from the dock, you had admitted to…

MANDELA: Yes.

KATHRADA:…a lot of things.

MANDELA: That’s right.

KATHRADA: But that wasn’t a plea of guilty.

MANDELA: Yes, yes, quite.

KATHRADA: Of guilt.

MANDELA: Mmm.

12. FROM THE END OF HIS 20 APRIL 1964 SPEECH FROM THE DOCK IN THE RIVONIA TRIAL

During my lifetime I have dedicated myself to this struggle of the African people. I have fought against White domination, and I have fought against Black domination. I have cherished the ideal of a democratic and free society in which all persons live together in harmony and with equal opportunities. It is an ideal which I hope to live for and to achieve. But if needs be, it is an ideal for which I am prepared to die.

Five points jotted down by Mandela in preparation for his speech from the dock on 20 April 1964 in the Rivonia Trial, in which he and his fellow trialists were facing the death penalty. It reads: