The Nuremberg Interviews (50 page)

He said everything with a minimum of emotionality, an affectless quality to both vocal and facial expression.

Yes, he said, he was an SS general during the war, but that was an automatic affair, because as chief of the Ordinary Police, he received the title. Well, then, I asked (through Dr. Gilbert, who was translating), was the police part of the SS? No, his police were nonmilitary, not part of the SS. However, Himmler was his superior. Was his police force related to the Gestapo? No, nothing to do with the Gestapo. Yes, Himmler was chief of Gestapo, and he was subject to Himmler. Asked pointedly if his police protected Jews and their property when attacks were occurring all over Germany, he said he knew nothing about these attacks, nobody ever told him. Once, just once, he recalled, now that it was mentioned, he witnessed the burning of a synagogue in Munich, but it happened so quickly, what could he do?

His relationship to Himmler? They didn’t get along well, because he was considered by Himmler to be a rival. He even heard at one time that Himmler was going to have him arrested. This never happened, however. What does he think of Himmler? Well, they just didn’t care for each other because they were rivals. But Daluege remained chief of the Ordinary Police all the time, and had frequent business conferences with Himmler. He could not, or would not, give any estimate of Himmler, seemed to lack either the desire or willingness (probably both) even to comment on Himmler as a human being, or to remark on any criticisms of, or for that matter agreements with, Himmler’s activities and policies.

Did he feel guilty of anything? “No.” He was in charge of the police force of Germany, and everything had gone all right as far as he knew.

The general impression he leaves is that he is insensitive, hard-boiled, capable of great ruthlessness, amoral, conscienceless.

He said that he inherited syphilis from his father, but it was not discovered until he was thirty-six. He has taken yearly treatments for the past ten years. His father lived to be seventy-three, had syphilis for years, but it never affected his health. Daluege was told that his syphilis was inherited, and that it was not unusual for the type of syphilis he had to go undiscovered for many years without symptoms. During the first ten
years of his marriage, he was childless, and thought that the syphilis caused him to be sterile. However, after a few years of treatment, he was able to have children. He has a picture on his writing table of his wife and four (perhaps five, I forget) small children.

Asked if there was anything I could do for him, he said he would like a blood test again, as it was about a year since he had his last, which was negative. However, a few years ago he was given malaria treatment for syphilis, which might indicate that spinal fluid was indicative of central nervous system involvement at the time.

I examined his pupils, which seemed to react well in accommodation, but not adequately to light.

There is no indication of organic mental affection. Sensorium, etc., intact, no evidence of mental dysfunction in any sphere. Emotionally, he seems callous, affectless, unimaginative, and there is evidence of obsessive character (namely the disturbance at ashes on his table, and the neat, printlike writing). He presents himself as being just an officeholder, the son of an officeholder; knows nothing about atrocities and so forth. It is clear that he would be the kind of executive who would neatly and obsessively be well informed about everything his forces did, and in fact exert a rigid control over them.

That it is fairly improbable to get much emotional response out of this man, I am convinced. There is a long-conditioned hardness, an outer shell which has been worn and used so long, probably nothing exists beneath it. Having dealt with force, violence, and easy dispositions of the lives of others, it is questionable as to how much value he puts on life in general, including his own in particular. This was not discussed with him, though it would be interesting to get some information on that point. Getting a sincere or emotionally meaningful answer from him is like trying to bail water from a long-dry well.

Sepp Dietrich
1892–1966

Josef “Sepp” Dietrich, an early supporter of Hitler, was head of the Hitler Bodyguard regiment, SS general, commander of the Sixth Panzer Army from 1944 to 1945, and appointed SS colonel general in 1944. Captured by the Americans and sentenced to life imprisonment, he was released from the American war crimes prison in Landsberg in 1955. Tried in Munich in 1957 for crimes committed in the Third Reich, he was sentenced to eighteen months’ imprisonment.

Sepp Dietrich is a fifty-four-year-old, stockily built fellow with a wry, humorous smile, a somewhat rough-and-ready attitude, quite friendly, and eager for the companionship that an interview affords. His general manner of speech and his mannerisms are not consistent with any notion of a German general, in the Prussian sense of the term. He gives the impression of competence, an easygoing manner, a minimum of military bearing, and a hard-boiled, rough, accepting attitude toward the facts of his present life in prison.

He has no particular physical complaints other than rheumatic pains in the left shoulder, which have been present since the winter of 1941, when he was at the Russian front.

In the First World War, he was injured twice. He spent three years in active service prior to that war, then spent four years’ service during the war. He was twenty-two when war began.

He was injured by a spear in the left supraorbital region in World War
I, when he fell from a horse. This became infected and he was four months in a hospital for that injury. He was wounded the second time by shrapnel in the right leg. He became a noncommissioned officer first, and finally an officer in 1921. He had been in the army steadily since the age of nineteen. After the last war, he remained in the 100,000-man army.

He never attended military academies. In 1917–18 he was with the panzers, and in the last war was exclusively a panzer commander.

He knew Field Marshal Erwin Rommel very well.
¹
“He too was about my age. He was not exclusively a panzer general.” Was he a good panzer general? “So-so.” Dietrich is obviously very cool toward Rommel. “It’s hard to change over from another branch of service. Rommel was really an infantry general.

“Rommel was jumpy, wanted to do everything at once, then lost interest. Rommel was my superior in command in Normandy. I cannot say Rommel wasn’t a good general. When successful, he was good; during reverses, he became depressed.”

Asked further about his own previous illnesses, he said, “I’m iron,” and laughed. “I lasted through ten years of war, and now I can last through this. It’s true, it’s not good for the nerves.” Is there enough to eat? “Yes. But we are never spoiled here. But I come from a workman’s family and was never spoiled as a child.”

Dietrich has been a POW for the past ten months, since May 10, 1945. On that date, he surrendered his army, along the Danube. They covered a front line of 220 kilometers, partly on the Danube, partly off it. His army consisted of two corps of SS and two army corps. He had under him two SS generals and two army generals.

He spent three years in Russia and one and a half years on the western front. In 1940 he was in France, Greece, Russia, and back to France.

“General Patch of your Seventh Army was a fast Rommel — faster than Rommel. I spoke with Patch.”

Marital:
First marriage was at age thirty, for ten years, terminating in divorce. “We didn’t get along.” They had no children. His present marriage occurred seven years ago, his wife now thirty-three; has three children with her, all boys. He has a picture of his wife and the youngsters nearby and shows them to me. He is loath to talk much about his marital life or sexual adjustment, and the matter was not pressed.

Family:
Father and mother, ages seventy-six and seventy, respectively, died in 1942. Father was a storehouse keeper who worked for a cheese
factory. He never made much of a living, but it was adequate for immediate needs. There were six children; two brothers were killed in the last war.

Mother:
Always well until she suffered a heart attack in 1942 and died. They were “very good parents,” but Sepp had to start to work early because of financial conditions.

Siblings:
He is the oldest child — five others. His two sisters are healthy, married.

Before the father died, he did not have political ideas or convictions. “Father was more of a Catholic — nonpolitical.” Do you feel yourself nonpolitical? “I never actively engaged in politics, never made speeches. Politics is a whore. It’s too high for me. Just as I don’t understand American politics, so I don’t understand German politics. The only interest in politics is to get to know how to lead a life under the most favorable circumstances.

“I observed a lot of suffering — in all the countries of Europe except Norway. People suffered before, during, and now after the war — it is worse. I know we lost the war, but if Europe is destroyed …”

What’s the point you want to make? “I understand by politics the whole life of people, misery, wealth, intelligence, nonintelligence, a whole setup of people. This is my opinion. I could notice it best because I was in all countries. I didn’t have fifteen people carrying my bags. I lived in farms, even ditches, and had plenty of opportunity to observe and get acquainted with the intelligence and manners of people. Also, in Russia. A man who doesn’t know Russia shouldn’t even talk about it.” What do you think of the Russians? “They have a wealth of children, are diligent, healthy, have fertile ground. Their industrial and business economy just fits Russia and has no application for anyone else. You can’t do it in the United States or Germany. There might be a democracy after a time in Germany, but not Communism. But in Russia, it fits one hundred percent.”

What about the character of Russian soldiers? “All Asiatics are cruel dogs. All they captured of my soldiers, they beat to death. The Russian soldiers are very brave, stable, tough.” Do you feel the Russian soldier is basically more cruel than the German soldier? “In the way of his fighting, yes. They are a different kind of people — can’t compare them with Europeans. Americans are for the most part Europeans. On the other hand, White Russians and Ukrainians are more similar to our own.”

Did more cruel things happen on the eastern than western front? “Yes. You can’t find these cruelties in the West or southwest. Down to the lower Balkans.”

Do you think it might be because the Russians lost land and people? “No. It was a racial factor.” Do you believe in the Nazi philosophy of racism and the master race? “You can find masters all over the world, not only in Germany, so I don’t believe in it. In all races, you can find good, intelligent folk. You can see the German people as they are now.” Yes, and we saw it before. “Yes, we did too. We fellows in the army didn’t fall for that.” But weren’t you a member of the party and working with it? “I agreed with the economic aims of the party since the last war, but I didn’t work politically with the party. Weimar had a political leadership that accomplished nothing. There were forty-six different parties; it wasn’t like in your country, with two parties. The Weimar Republic had a lot of good ideas, but never could get them together. If we had had strong, unified movements, we might have accomplished something.”

When did you become a Nazi? “I joined the party in 1928.” Why? “I was interested because I saw the Social Democrats and Communists were not for me. All my relatives were unemployed. The German people are hard to lead — they need an iron rule. They are square-heads.” Why? “Because intellectually, culturally, practically, they are stubborn.” Then why, if stubborn and hard to lead, did they suddenly follow Hitler? “He was not stupid. They actually ran after him. He must have been the best of our leaders at the time, or he would not have had such a following. Most of the party people had belonged to other parties, such as Homeowners’ Party, or Union, Trade Unions, Social Democrats, or Communist.”

Did you know Hitler personally very much? “Almost only on official business.” What did you, or do you, think of him? “Some people say he was crazy. Most of such people are non-Germans who are trying to get something out of it. You couldn’t get close to Hitler as far as private conversations are concerned. Not even Goering.” Always, or just during the war? “Always. He stood above anyone else. As soon as he became Reich chancellor, he became more and more distant, et cetera.” I’ve also heard the reverse, that Hitler could be seen if someone had a problem. “No. He was like a stern father. No, Hitler never even told Goebbels about his own problems.” Could you go to Hitler with your problems? “For quite a while. Then suddenly, in 1942 or 1943, one couldn’t go to Hitler.

Or one could go up to him, but not achieve anything. When things got bad, as in Stalingrad, Hitler became stubborn, and one could not reason with him.

“We tried to see things from a more human side. Hitler didn’t see it. We fought against an enemy six times as large as us.” When was the last time you saw Hitler? “On February 25, 1945.” How did he look? “Sick. Almost completely finished. After the assassination attempt, he went down and down. First of all, he must have suffered some kind of injury and strain of the last twenty years. Even the strongest bull couldn’t stand it. He never went to bed before four or five a.m. He was a typical night worker. Maybe four to five hours’ sleep per day. You can do it for a month, not for years. We weren’t so dumb we couldn’t see it. We just couldn’t help ourselves.” Did you think Hitler made any big mistakes before 1940? “Yes. Starting the war. Whenever people lose a war, the losers look foolish. We had a poor foreign policy, even before Hitler’s time.” What do you mean? “Take a map. See where Germany lies — look at the countries surrounding Germany, count her enemies and her friends, and see what I mean.” Do you mean German foreign policy should have created more friends? “A friendlier economy should be some way of bringing people of the world together. It’s not the way of doing it now.”