Mavericks of the Mind: Conversations with Terence McKenna, Allen Ginsberg, Timothy Leary, John Lilly, Carolyn Mary Kleefeld, Laura Huxley, Robert Anton Wilson, and others… (30 page)

Rebecca:
I was going to ask what would you like your funeral to be like?

Timothy:
Well, you're assuming there's going to be a funeral. Yeah, you're talking about the ceremonies or the activities.

Rebecca:
Yeah, what would you like that to be like after you die?

Timothy:
Well, just what we're doing right now. Everything that I do, everything that goes on in this house is centrally connected with our work, our philosophy, our religion. It's all woven together.

David:
You used the word religion.

Timothy:
I consider that to be one of the most dangerous words in the English language-- Croatians, Catholics, Moslems...

David:
What did you mean by it then when you said it?

Timothy:
Well, I didn't say it, I repeated it.

David:
Where do you think that you go after you die Timothy?

Timothy:
Well, obviously your body is going to go where you instruct people to bring it. It can be cremation, it can be worms...

David:
Timothy, do you think that your consciousness can exist independently of your body?

Timothy:
Sure. Oh absolutely. Of course.

David:
Oh you do?! You've had experiences of being out of your body?

Timothy:
Well, I've taken a lot of LSD.

David:
Well, so have I, but I'm not sure that I've had any out-of-body experiences on LSD though. But you have?

Timothy:
Oh yeah. Many times I'd feel my leather hands (laughter), and there's no warm blood inside them. Flesh has become simulated skin. Yeah, I've been there.

David:
Have you ever had feelings like you've lived before? When you're tripping you must have had that?

Timothy:
Oh absolutely, yes. Jesus, yeah. In that state the reality scenarios are amazing.

David:
Looking back over your life, what would you say were the most important things that you learned?

Timothy:
Over and over again, you say "learned", as though this were some kind of manual we were doing.

David:
You say re-discover?

Timothy:
Oh, it depends upon the context.

David:
What are the most important things that you've re-discovered or learned throughout your life?

Timothy:
One of the most important things that I've learned is that when you meet an irresistible force, move on! Keep moving. Don't hang around Bosnia or wherever. Can you believe they're killing each other over there over a tiny piece of land? Always put yourself in the best place you can, the best place to be. The selection of your location-shot-- where you make this movie of your life-- is tremendously important. Go to a place where the people share your interests, your aspirations, and your optimistic point of view. A place, of course, that is secure and safe. You don't want to go into the middle of Bosnia or someplace like that. You have a lot to do with the selection of the place you live, your own goals, and the uniform you wear.

David:
Do you have any regrets, or would you change anything in your life?

Timothy:
Boy, I have tremendous regrets of letting people down, mainly friends and relatives. It's interesting though, that the things that I regret not doing, I had already begun doing more than full-time, like seeing more of my grandchildren. I just regret that I couldn't do more. It's the same helplessness of any friend or parent when you see someone who you love that you can't help.

David:
You wish that you could have done more, or that you could have been more there for them?

Timothy:
I'm just sad about it. You're trying to rationalize it. I just fucking feel sad. I don't have to have a reason. (laughter) Right? Funny isn't it.

David:
What kind of world do you envision when you're re-animated from cryonic suspension?

Timothy:
Why throw that in? Why not just say, what do you think will happen in the future? It might be a place with a bunch of middle-class white men standing around with clipboards. (laughter) If that's the case, then send me back. (laughter)

David:
So do you have a particular fantasy?

Timothy:
You know, I don't. I'm so involved in living all this. Does that make any sense?

David:
Yeah, you're very much in the moment.

Timothy:
No, I'm doing it. What does that mean-- I'm doing it? I'm planning it, and trying things out. All this is a rehearsal. I'm rehearsing.

David:
For?

Timothy:
My death. You know how when people get married they have a wedding rehearsal, with bridesmaids and all that? This is similar. There's going to be a big party.

(To Rebecca) Thank you for your radiance and warmth. I think you like me.

Rebecca:
I do like you very much. You've had a very big influence on my life.

David:
Yeah, you've had a really big influence on my life too. One of the things I really wanted to do was to thank you for coming to this planet and doing what you've done. You've been an amazing inspiration-- for me, and for a lot of people.

Timothy:
Not that I'm making a big victim-problem out of it, but it's possible that I've influenced an enormous number of people. It's possible that I'm one of the most important people of the Twentieth Century. Not that I am, but that this wave going on which I've been a part of is. It was happening and I was there. I saw it happening, and I predicted it, but I didn't cause it.

David:
Well, you did more than simply predict it, you surfed it. Your courage and vision inspired a lot of people. You helped to create a lot of what went on.

Timothy:
The metaphors, the rituals, the style, and the attitude. There is a definite attitude-- the way I see life-- that I think got incorporated into the culture. It is a very thrilling and wonderful opportunity that we are now lucky enough to be in this position in America. It's staggering how lucky we are. You could be in prison or stuck in Bosnia-- Wow!

David:
How are you feeling Timothy?

Timothy:
I am absolutely in heaven. This is the best I've felt in many many days. I must tell you I feel emotionally just very very happy, blissed out as a matter of fact, and I'm having a lot of fun. The pain can be terrible, but if I don't move, God, I just feel great. And, also you see, the longer we keep talking, the longer I can get her (Robin-- our friend, the massage therapist) to hang around. (laughter)

When she (Robin) starts getting up under the knees, it's almost like a genital thrill-- ooohhh woooww! (Laughter) Once she gets over the kneecap... oh boy! Just that little squeeze there... I'm having a good time. I hope I'm not playing around too much. I'm feeling mellow, and I'm enjoying it, and I like you guys. So I'm just babbling away here. (To David) You have a very healing face. You radiate a kind of quiet joy. It's amazing. It's very nice. I like you. (To Robin and Rebecca) He's a very nice guy isn't he? Friendly, sincere, good teeth too, boy.

Rebecca:
What is important to you right now?

Timothy:
Well, right now, this massage. (laughter) Anytime you're being massaged, it's a wonderful world.

David:
Is there anything that you haven't done, that you'd still like to do?

Timothy:
Well, that's something I've thought about, and the answer is basically, no. I have no desire to expand into adventures or quaint explorations. When you're younger you want to see Athens and the Vatican, to travel around the world. That just doesn't attract me at this stage.

David:
How would you like to be remembered?

Timothy:
Everybody gets the Timothy Leary that they deserve.

David:
What has been the secret, all these years, to your undying sense of courage and optimism?

Timothy:
It's common sense. It's all common sense and fair play. See, because fair play is common sense. It's a very obvious approach to life.

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In the Presence of the Past

with Rupert Sheldrake

Rupert Sheldrake is best known for his controversial theory of "formative causation " which implies a non-mechanistic universe, governed by laws which themselves are subject to change. Born in Newark-on-Trent, England, Rupert studied natural sciences at Cambridge and philosophy at Harvard, where he was a Frank Knox Fellow. He took a Ph.D in biochemistry at Cambridge in 1967, and in the same year became a Fellow of Glare College, Cambridge. He was Director of Studies in biochemistry and cell biology there until 1973.

He was a Rosenheim Research Fellow of the Royal Society and at Cambridge he studied the development of plants and the aging of cells. From 1974 to 1978, he was Principal Plant Physiologist at the International Crops Research Institute for the Semi-Arid Tropics (ICRISAT) in Hyderabad, India, and he continued to work there as a Consultant Physiologist until 1985.

Rupert is the author of
A New Science of Life and The Presence of the Past
, in which he presents his theory for explaining the mysterious process of morphogenesis. In 1981 the British science magazine,
Nature
described
A New Science of Life
as "the best candidate for burning there has been for many years, " while the
New Scientist
called it "an important scientific inquiry into the nature of biological and physical reality. "

In
The Rebirth of Nature
, Rupert examines the philosophical implications of morphogenesis, and in
Trialogues on the Edge of the West
, which he wrote with Terence McKenna and Ralph Abraham, he debates and interweaves many ideas concerning the nature of reality.

On September 15, 1989, we met with the Sheldrakes and their young son Merlin at the Esalen institute, where Rupert's wife, Jill Pearce, was teaching a workshop in the art of overtone chanting. Rupert spoke to us about the subtle processes involved in the evolution of nature through time, painting a simultaneously intricate and simple picture of a dynamic universe where previously unrecognized functions of space-time are constantly at work interacting with every aspect of life on earth.

RMN

DJB: Rupert, what was it that originally inspired your interest in biochemistry and morphogenesis?

RUPERT: I did biology because I was interested in animals and plants, and because my father was a biologist. He was a natural historian of the old school, with a microscope room at home and cabinets of slides, and so on. And he taught me a lot about plants, and I learned about animals through keeping pets. I was just very interested in biology. One reason I did biochemistry was because it was one of the very few sciences you could do which was still covering all of biology. Biochemistry covered plants, animals, and microorganisms. That appealed to me. It was a kind of universal biological science. I saw, of course, quite soon, that biochemistry was no way of understanding the forms of animals and plants, and I spent a lot of time thinking about how to make the bridge between embryology, plant development, and what was going on on the biochemical level. And this was the subject of research for some ten years that I did at Cambridge.